The NH Secession platform is done. (For now at least.)

[Caleb]

Tracey,

I'm still working on the "benefits" part of it.  I'm almost done with the benefits. Just don't want you to think I've abandoned you.  I'll email you the results when I'm finished.

Caleb

[tracysaboe]

Thanks, don't worry too much about it.

Tracy

[BOVER]

True, but why not try to make it small from the beginning so we have less to fight.

Tracy

Of course that would be nice.  But the way I see it, there are two possibilities:
1.  Do away with most/all of the government, then secede
2.  Secede, then do away with most/all of the government

If you include all those various libertarian items, then you are looking at path 1 because by the time secession is feasible (with enough movers), doing away with most/all of the government would have been more easily implemented.

But a more general secession movement would be possible without having enough support for all the libertarian issues.  I don't think there is anything wrong with "making it small from the beginning", but it would be better to do that outside the official organization, just to gain broad support.

[tracysaboe]

Well, perhaps we can coelition with other NH secession movements then.

Tracy

[AmerTownCrier]

I just read the thread re: secession and wonder if it's really necessary. Doesn't article X say: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.  In other words...we need to elect a govenor who will simply do all the things you suggest be done by secession. 'Kick the fed out' basically. No more alphabet agents that are federal employees allowed. NH makes it's own rules...and the national guard (does NH have one?) protects us. A strong govenor would return NH to it's sovereign status.

[tracysaboe]

Since when have the feds followed the Constitution.

You'd work that hard for your independence just to have it mortgaged away again with the next NH or Federal ellection.

That was the theory behind the original Constitution. It hasn't worked.

This makes a good fAQ though. I'll ad it to the FAQ list.

Tracy

[AmerTownCrier]

It's true Tracy...the constitution is being shredded as we speak. It's probably why 'King George' always complains about 'its hard work'     I was thinking about simply showing by example that a free state with a strong leader would begin to show the residents of the state that electing someone who understands freedom and the progress it offers...and quit choosing between the tweedledee's and tweedledummer's will begin to pay enough attention to electing a 'statesman'. Crap...I suppose I should be more politically correct and say 'statesperson'.   I know the constitution is fading away...but I still don't file income taxes and I still don't participate in social security. That may mean life is going to be tougher (especially with the Real ID on the horizen) but Article X is still there to be used. Showing prosperity by doing it right should keep things on the right track..and keep other states/businessess interested in working with NH (which I believe was a potential problem someone brought up).

[tracysaboe]

I don't believe in ellecting "Strong leaders"  Strong leaders are how we got into this mess.

The Constitution was shreaded long ago. ORiginally by Lincoln. Cleveland did his best to patch it back together (God rest his soul) but in the end it's not a document that any of the federals use in their decisionmaking anymore -- and hasn't been for a good 80 years.

A grass roots secessionist movement is the only way to secede with-out making the state stronger. I have no interest in increasing the scope and legitimacy of the State  as a tool to diminish the Fed. I have interests in diminisioning the FED and hopefully keep the State at the same time.

Tracy

[AmerTownCrier]

I don't understand your logic Tracy. We got into this problem because we elected weak leaders...not strong leaders. And if the constitution is so shredded...what's all this talk about a movement called FSP? What's the sense in trying anymore? The shredding, let's remember, is symbolism. It actually does still exist.
The state does have legitimacy. Even if it's just to provide courts where I can go to demand redress of grievences. We aren't going to 'get rid' of state leaders...let's just get the mindset changed so the strong and intelligent people are in place. NH sitting by itself won't accomplish anything...except make the other 49 pissed off.
How do you plan to diminish the fed without the state to back you up?  It sounds like a lot of anger...and I have my own share so I'm not knocking you...but NH won't secede from the union. It can be an example of how it should be done...but how do you go about that without state reps? Where would we have been without Neal Kurk in the house? If he'd been govenor...he would have not signed the Real ID.

[Atlas]

  In other words...we need to elect a govenor who will simply do all the things you suggest be done by secession. 'Kick the fed out' basically. No more alphabet agents that are federal employees allowed. NH makes it's own rules...and the national guard (does NH have one?) protects us. A strong govenor would return NH to it's sovereign status.

Very good point!

[tracysaboe]

I don't understand your logic Tracy. We got into this problem because we elected weak leaders...not strong leaders. And if the constitution is so shredded...what's all this talk about a movement called FSP? What's the sense in trying anymore? The shredding, let's remember, is symbolism. It actually does still exist.
The state does have legitimacy. Even if it's just to provide courts where I can go to demand redress of grievences. We aren't going to 'get rid' of state leaders...let's just get the mindset changed so the strong and intelligent people are in place. NH sitting by itself won't accomplish anything...except make the other 49        off.
How do you plan to diminish the fed without the state to back you up?  It sounds like a lot of anger...and I have my own share so I'm not knocking you...but NH won't secede from the union. It can be an example of how it should be done...but how do you go about that without state reps? Where would we have been without Neal Kurk in the house? If he'd been govenor...he would have not signed the Real ID.

No we have this problem because we have ellected "visionaries" who want to use the coersive power of government to change the world. That's why all governments everywhere are bloated.

The tyrrany of visionaries with good intentions.

It's not about anger. It's about what works. And we don't want to kick the fed out just to have a tyrant in our back-door because all the increased power and legitimacy it's gotten by getting rid of the fed.

TRacy

[AmerTownCrier]

I'd like to think for the past 30 years I've been a sort of 'visionary'. Getting into trouble telling people, "you don't have to file a tax return...it's voluntary' or 'you don't have to participate in social security, it's voluntary and intended for foreigners and americans who choose to participate.' Where did that get me? A relative life of solitude and a bad reputation by the sheeple in my neighborhood. I wasn't wrong...they just outnumber me! That's why we were never set up to be a democracy...we are a Federalist Republic!
That's why FSP woke me up again! A place where enough 'like minded people' live. I said 'enough' like minded people...not a majority. I still have enough faith in people to think showing how to do it right will win people over...and yes, at that point become a majority. Where the constitution is actually 'lived by' and not just brought up because it makes someone feel superior to be an 'american'...and then go pick up their welfare check.
Demaning NH secede will just scare the hell out of people...and they will stay with the staus quo! The Feds will prevail for the same reason they have succeeded to this point. Frightened people look for answers and guidance...and as we have found...accept stupidity even when it hurts them. WE the people put these tyrannical visionaries in power...they didn't just come out of nowhere. We did it by not electing someone with high standards and a strong moral code to back up those high standards, even when it wasn't convenient. So now, we get tweedledee and tweedledumber as choices.
Government doesn't have to be coercive...but it does seem to be 'it's' nature. The founding fathers new that! That's one reason we have the Bill of Rights...and nobody else does. And governments are only bloated because the sheeple keep paying instead of just saying no!
You say, "The tyrrany of visionaries with good intentions." It's about the american mindset. THAT needs to be changed. Don't you think if govenor X from New Hampshire went on TV and told King George...you better pick another state to give you your Real ID because this state is full of free human beings, that King George wouldn't have gone elsewhere? Of course, knowing the response...he would have started somewhere else to begin with.
"It's not about anger. It's about what works" you say. How does seceding from the other 49 work? Your going back to what the Constitutional Convention was about. The Articles of Confederation weren't working and the colonies were ready to essentially become nations in their own right. That brought about the Federalist Papers which (in a very small part) said, "If we all go our own ways...we'll all be at war with each other sooner then later." So, we were given a 'central government' that was in existence to primarily deal with foreigners...and be a means for the 13 states to have a place to mediate differences...not to make dictates to sovereign territories.
"And we don't want to kick the fed out just to have a tyrant in our back-door because all the increased power and legitimacy it's gotten by getting rid of the fed." Sorry Tracy...but I have to repeat...the tyrant in our back door is only there because no alternative has been offered...as in someone who understands life under the constitution and how it works. As far as getting increased power and legitimacy...that's actually just an assumption you are making. I personally think any governor who did the 'right thing' and kicked the fed and all it's alphabet agents OUT...wouldn't be allowed to just take more power. Kicking out the feds wouldn't leave a vacuum for him/her to step into...it would be filled by intelligent, knowledgable Porcs!
Question: If NH secedes...who's in 'charge'? Where do I go when I have a legitimate grievence? 

[Caleb]

Your argument is tantamount to saying "since people right now don't support something, we should give up trying to win them over."

We are not "demanding secession", at least, not without trying to build the framework first, and that framework is showing people how tyrannical the U.S. government is.

you say there is no law that says you have to pay taxes?  Does that stop them from stealing people's money?

Why can't a governor stand up and demand the feds back off?  He can.  Temporarily.  And then when he is gone and someone more conciliatory is in "power", they'll go right back to oppressing us. 

We need a clean slate.  Could NH oppress you?  Sure.  So could your little town.  As long as there are governments, there will be fights for liberty, because the only thing governments do is tell people what they have to do at the barrel of a gun.  Governments, by their very nature, are antagonistic to liberty.  But NH or your little town could oppress you now, even with the federal government.  What we're saying is, "let's get rid of one layer of the tyranny."  It helps that its the worst part.

Caleb

[AmerTownCrier]

Your argument is tantamount to saying "since people right now don't support something, we should give up trying to win them over."

I'm not sure if that response even calls for an answer. Are you saying if I don't agree with YOU, I should just let you tell me I'm wrong? I've heard that argument for 30 years.

We are not "demanding secession", at least, not without trying to build the framework first, and that framework is showing people how tyrannical the U.S. government is.

We know how tyrannical the government is. Isn't that the purpose of FSP? To gather enough people in one place (NH) to make changes that don't allow tyrannical governments to exist? At least at the state level?

you say there is no law that says you have to pay taxes?  Does that stop them from stealing people's money?

It would if people just said NO and lived in a state that didn't use force against them when they said NO!

Why can't a governor stand up and demand the feds back off?  He can.  Temporarily.  And then when he is gone and someone more conciliatory is in "power", they'll go right back to oppressing us.  

Not with an educated (and now free) state. Give people the choice between good and bad..and show them the good by example and they won't be in such a hurry to go back to the crap. Again...what's the alternative you offer? 1 million and a half people [plus 20,000 porcs:)] can all live happily ever after without anyone in charge? Who stops the other 49 from invading NH when we do it right and they want it for themselves? The NH militia?

We need a clean slate.  Could NH oppress you?  Sure.  So could your little town.  As long as there are governments, there will be fights for liberty, because the only thing governments do is tell people what they have to do at the barrel of a gun.  Governments, by their very nature, are antagonistic to liberty.  But NH or your little town could oppress you now, even with the federal government.  What we're saying is, "let's get rid of one layer of the tyranny."  It helps that its the worst part.

Ironically I agree. I just want to get rid of the layer of government and not find myself hanging out to dry, all alone against the other 49 states and a million and a half idiots who are ready to take what I have.

[Caleb]

What if you live in Iraq and you're tired of getting the crap bombed out of you?

What if you live in Colombia and you're tired of having your bananas sprayed with Roundup Ultra?

What if you live in any number of third world countries and you're tired of the IMF destroying any chance you have of building a life for yourself?

What if you live in Latin America, and you're tired of the CIA setting up puppet dictatorships who torture and kill you?

The enemy, the bad man, is the wicked United States of America!  Secession is the method of destroying her so she can no longer wreak havoc, not only on us, but on the rest of the world.  My goal is to destroy the United States from within by fracturing it into 50 separate pieces.  With no "Union", there is no federal government.  Secession is the means to the end.

Your method, even if 100% successful only gives a little temporary freedom to yourself and your neighbors.  It does nothing to stop the threat to humanity that is the USA.

In my mind:  USA = NAZI Germany.  And yes, you and others in this movement may already know that ... but there are a ton of people who DON'T!  Or else they do know, but they feel helpless to stop it because no one has given them something they can DO about it.

Caleb