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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"  (Read 6674 times)

Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2006, 12:32 PM NHFT »

if we were sharing economic rent equally and directly between neighbors in a community there would be no "sales price" to occupy a particular location.

you are confusing wealth with value via price...

in order for wealth to be created there has to be labor inputs...in the case of economic rent the labor inputs are from your neighbors not from the owner.

thus, the landowner is capturing the labor of those he excludes via a tax to be paid by one of them at the time of a sale or a tenant monthly.

Economic rent is slavery plain and simple.

Lets say I purchased a plot of land and started to grow my own food on it becoming totally self sufficient. I no longer need to hold a job so I quit my job and enjoy my land. FrankChodorovs group of thugs come marching over to me demanding that I go back to work so that I can pay the property taxes. If I do not get a job to pay the tax I lose my land. So I have to work in order to live because I cannot live without land. Slavery.
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2006, 02:03 PM NHFT »

Quote
Lets say I purchased a plot of land and started to grow my own food on it becoming totally self sufficient.

there would be no purchase price to land...just sharing economic rent directly and equally between neighbors

Quote
FrankChodorovs group of thugs come marching over to me demanding that I go back to work so that I can pay the property taxes

that presupposes that economic rent attaches to the location you are occupying - does it?

Quote
If I do not get a job to pay the tax I lose my land

maybe the economic rent your neighbors are sharing with you is more than you are sharing with them - is that the case?

Quote
So I have to work in order to live because I cannot live without land. Slavery

I think that describes our current system of land tenure pretty well...except I would say inorder to exist you have to occupy land and if all land is legally owned there is no place you can stand without having to pay someone (or be gifted the right) and thus nowhere to actually excercise your right of self-ownership.

in the system I advocate no matter where anyone else chooses to locate your right of self-ownership is preserved because you're are not being subjected to a tax on your wages in the form of economic rent.

wrap your head around this one Lex:

the economic rent being shared by you with your neighbors does not violate your right of self-ownership to your labor products because you contribute no labor towards producing the economic rent - it is the virtual fact that inorder to exist we must occupy space and the scarcity of unoccupied but legally owned locations plus the labor of our neighbors that creates the unimproved land values (economic rent)...

kinda like a koan, huh?

if the excluded pay the excluders out of their wages it violates their right of self-ownership because inorder to exist you must occupy some space somewhere.
if the excluders pay the excluded out of their wages it DOES NOT violate their right of self-ownership because their labor does not create the economic rent - their neighbors' labor and mere presence does.
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 02:10 PM NHFT »

that presupposes that economic rent attaches to the location you are occupying - does it?

Lets say I have a really nice, roomy, piece of property with a view, thus the economic rent attaches to my property. Am I going to be, to the day I die, keeping my neighbors on welfare because they have smaller lots?
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Caleb

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 02:27 PM NHFT »

I'm starting to wonder something, Bill ...

Your concept of "economic rent" only applies in a system where there is a standardized currency.

Wouldn't it break down entirely if we went back to the barter system?

Caleb
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 02:32 PM NHFT »

I'm starting to wonder something, Bill ...

Your concept of "economic rent" only applies in a system where there is a standardized currency.

Wouldn't it break down entirely if we went back to the barter system?


does the lack of a standardized currency somehow negate the fact that economic rent (a cost/price for access) naturally attaches to all locations under conditions of scarcity?

no...I don't think so.

what would it be in a barter economy - a pound of flesh or your first born child?
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 02:35 PM NHFT »

that presupposes that economic rent attaches to the location you are occupying - does it?

Lets say I have a really nice, roomy, piece of property with a view, thus the economic rent attaches to my property. Am I going to be, to the day I die, keeping my neighbors on welfare because they have smaller lots?

has nothing to do with the size of someone's lot or welfare and everything to do with the right of self-ownership (simple justice via equal liberty).

now how about that koan?
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 02:37 PM NHFT »

has nothing to do with the size of someone's lot or welfare and everything to do with the right of self-ownership (simple justice via equal liberty).

I was asking a specific question and since you are the expert I would like your expert opinion on this subject so that I can have a correct understand of your theory/philosophy:

Lets say I have a really nice, roomy, piece of property with a view, thus the economic rent attaches to my property. Am I going to be, to the day I die, keeping my neighbors on welfare because they have smaller lots?
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2006, 02:45 PM NHFT »

has nothing to do with the size of someone's lot or welfare and everything to do with the right of self-ownership (simple justice via equal liberty).

I was asking a specific question and since you are the expert I would like your expert opinion on this subject so that I can have a correct understand of your theory/philosophy:

Lets say I have a really nice, roomy, piece of property with a view, thus the economic rent attaches to my property. Am I going to be, to the day I die, keeping my neighbors on welfare because they have smaller lots?

no, you are finally going to take delight in knowing (rather than as a libertarian falsely believing otherwise) that by sharing the economic rent with your neighbors (and they with you) rather than taxing it from their wages via force and violating their right of self-onwership - you are instead upholding their right of self-ownership by strengthening property rights to labor as they are upholding yours.

so before you die you will actually be able to rest easy knowing you are contributing towards a just society based on equal liberty for all here in NH.

now, how about that koan?
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2006, 03:15 PM NHFT »

no, you are finally going to take delight in knowing (rather than as a libertarian falsely believing otherwise) that by sharing the economic rent with your neighbors (and they with you) rather than taxing it from their wages via force and violating their right of self-onwership - you are instead upholding their right of self-ownership by strengthening property rights to labor as they are upholding yours.

You have muddled your answer beyond comprehension.

so before you die you will actually be able to rest easy knowing you are contributing towards a just society based on equal liberty for all here in NH.

I will rest easy? Sounds like I'll be breaking my back working to pay this economic rent of yours.

now, how about that koan?

What's a koan?



And lets try this yet again:

Lets say I have a really nice, roomy, piece of property with a view, nicer than what my neighbors have, thus the economic rent attaches to my property. Am I going to be, to the day I die, "sharing" economic rent with my neighbors because they have less appealing lots than mine?

A) Yes, you will be paying your neighbors to compensate them for what you have and they do not. Thus you will have to labor until you die to "share" your economic rent with them.
B) No, you will not have to compensate your neighbors for having a nicer property then they.

Please pick A or B.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2006, 03:21 PM NHFT »

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a tough time understanding Mr. Chodorov.  He's unintelligible!
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2006, 03:22 PM NHFT »

Uh oh, was that an insult?
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2006, 03:25 PM NHFT »

Uh oh, was that an insult?

Now you've gone done it! You had to go and insult Mr. Chodorov who of all people just wants us to share...
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2006, 03:44 PM NHFT »

Quote
Please pick A or B

A) Yes, you will be paying sharing the economic rent with your neighbors to compensate them for what you have and they do not uphold their right of self-ownership. Thus you will have to labor until you die delight in knowing that to "share" your economic rent with them (and they with you) strengthens both of your property rights to your labor products (wages)...the economic rent that you share is NOT the result of your labor because if you collected it from them it was created via their mere presence on earth and their labor products to improve their own property creating a positive externality for you.

Quote
What's a koan?

ko?an (k?'?n') pronunciation
n.

A puzzling, often paradoxical statement or story, used in Zen Buddhism as an aid to meditation and a means of gaining spiritual awakening.

---------------

in the case I am making the "koan" is...

the economic rent you share with your neighbor is not violating your right of self-ownership because you do not labor to create it - by definition the economic rent is unimproved land value.

the economic rent paid to you monthly by a tenant or at the time of a sale by a buyer of your land does violate their right of self-ownership because they do labor to produce it.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 03:49 PM NHFT by FrankChodorov »
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2006, 03:57 PM NHFT »

A) Yes, you will be paying sharing the economic rent with your neighbors to compensate them for what you have and they do not uphold their right of self-ownership. Thus you will have to labor until you die delight in knowing that to "share" your economic rent with them (and they with you) strengthens both of your property rights to your labor products (wages)...the economic rent that you share is NOT the result of your labor because if you collected it from them it was created via their mere presence on earth and their labor products to improve their own property creating a positive externality for you.

This system of yours seems to be based on feel good economics. e.g. How can I share economic rent if I do not hold a job and thus have something (other than land) to share?
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2006, 04:23 PM NHFT »

A) Yes, you will be paying sharing the economic rent with your neighbors to compensate them for what you have and they do not uphold their right of self-ownership. Thus you will have to labor until you die delight in knowing that to "share" your economic rent with them (and they with you) strengthens both of your property rights to your labor products (wages)...the economic rent that you share is NOT the result of your labor because if you collected it from them it was created via their mere presence on earth and their labor products to improve their own property creating a positive externality for you.

This system of yours seems to be based on feel good economics. e.g. How can I share economic rent if I do not hold a job and thus have something (other than land) to share?

I dunno - how can you stand anywhere in NH inorder to excercise your supposed right of self-ownership that doesn't need to be purchased or gifted (we are born with rights) if all locations are legally occupied?

even if you aren't sharing the economic rent it is still attaching to your location and then you are entitled to capitalize on it at the time of sale...

that's the paradox...

why not allow your unimproved land value be liened and the non-redeemable liens become the basis of a local currency distributed to all neighbors within a community?

or

all the economic rent is payable to your neighbors at title transfer?
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