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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"  (Read 6678 times)

Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2006, 12:33 AM NHFT »

your obviously under the false impression that if my system were implemented there wouldn't be any homesteadable land with no economic rent attached to it...because it demands that people use their location much more intensively (particularly in the urban core) there would be land abandoned on the margins that could easily be homesteaded...
Are you saying that, under your system, if one can find a piece of land that nobody else wants he won't have to pay any property taxes on it?

Yeah, he will also probably add that somebody will pay you for taking the land... because it's not as nice as what somebody else has thus they will compensate you for your troubles.  ::)
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2006, 12:35 AM NHFT »

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Do you honestly think you can convince me that property taxes are a good thing?
all I am trying to point out to you is a way of living that will create the greatest amount of equal freedom for the greatest number of people with use of simple logic and reason.

It is not my business to impose freedom on other people. Your system requires everyone to want freedom and want to work in a certain kind of land system.

So philosophically we do not agree on the same things.

I am a Capitalist and you are an Anti-Capitalist. Couldn't get any more opposite than that.
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2006, 05:39 AM NHFT »

your obviously under the false impression that if my system were implemented there wouldn't be any homesteadable land with no economic rent attached to it...because it demands that people use their location much more intensively (particularly in the urban core) there would be land abandoned on the margins that could easily be homesteaded...

Are you saying that, under your system, if one can find a piece of land that nobody else wants he won't have to pay any property taxes on it?

in my system there would be no purchase price to land only the sharing of the unimproved land value (economic rent) between neighbors.

that means alot of marginal lands that have a small selling value today will be abandoned and free for anyone to homestead until sometime in the future when it re-acquires an economic rental value.
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2006, 05:48 AM NHFT »

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Do you honestly think you can convince me that property taxes are a good thing?
all I am trying to point out to you is a way of living that will create the greatest amount of equal freedom for the greatest number of people with use of simple logic and reason.

It is not my business to impose freedom on other people. Your system requires everyone to want freedom and want to work in a certain kind of land system.

So philosophically we do not agree on the same things.

in the land system I propose EVERYONE'S right of self-ownership is protected without an unjust use of force no matter where ANYONE decides to locate.

in the land system you advocate only those with land have the right to self-ownership all the landless are shit-outta-luck while being FORCED to pay economic rent (a tax) to the landowners...

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I am a Capitalist and you are an Anti-Capitalist. Couldn't get any more opposite than that.

you are a capitalist unjustly using force to continue government granted privilege...

I am an anti-capitalist who believes in the free market by removing all government granted privilege...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 11:03 AM NHFT by FrankChodorov »
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2006, 11:01 AM NHFT »

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Can you explain, in simple terms, the mechanics of how this would work?

sure...

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Let's say I've just graduated from college and decide to buy a small house on 1/4 acre in the suburbs. So I would buy the house from the previous owner, but would not have title to the land it sits on?

you would buy the house (capital created via labor) and hold title to the land because you would have exclusive use but you wouldn't have exclusive right to the unimproved land values which attaches to and accumulates on the location (socially created economic rent )...that would remain owned in common as an individual right of each members of the community as they are the ones that created it via their labor on their own property (capital) and by their mere presence in the world raises demand for a limited resource (land/locations).

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Sort of like a trailer park arrangement in that I would pay rent to the town (or the state?) for using the land?

I prefer a land trust analogy but trailer park works except rather than paying the "trailer park owner" (or the town/state) you would be paying all of your neighbors and they would be paying you for exclusive use of what we all would have equal access to if we were living in a "perfect state of nature" - complete unfettered individual freedom only bracketed by the equal liberty rights of everyone else.

if the town spends a dime of the economic rent then they have conflated an individual right owned in common for a collective right and I don't recognize any group rights as I am not a collectivist anarchist - I am an individualist anarchist.

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Would the town (or state) then redistribute my rent payments to everyone else living in the area so that the "economic rent" would be shared?

yes the sole role of the state is to enforce your exclusive use of the location but facilitate that no one's right of self-ownership is infringed upon by the direct and equal sharing of economic rent...in other words no one is economically harmed no matter where anyone else chooses to locate.

the closest possible system we can reasonably devise to us all living in a "perfect state of nature" - complete unfettered individual freedom only bracketed by the equal liberty rights of everyone else.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 11:10 AM NHFT by FrankChodorov »
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2006, 12:47 PM NHFT »

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I still don't get exactly how the economic rent is collected and redistributed. Specifics, please, not theory...Do I make a monthly payment to the government for the use of the land or a one-time payment?

in NH you pay every 6 months.

you electronic transfer money to a third party and they electronic transfer it to all community member accounts...

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What happens if my suburb is near a booming city and the value of my 1/4 acre increases over time?

you share more of it with your neighbors...
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2006, 12:59 PM NHFT »

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I still don't get exactly how the economic rent is collected and redistributed. Specifics, please, not theory...Do I make a monthly payment to the government for the use of the land or a one-time payment?
in NH you pay every 6 months.
you electronic transfer money to a third party and they electronic transfer it to all community member accounts...

After collecting an administrative fee of course, say 30%  >:D

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What happens if my suburb is near a booming city and the value of my 1/4 acre increases over time?
you share more of it with your neighbors...

Sharing is nice when it's voluntary, when it's not voluntary it's NOT CALLED FREAKING SHARING!!! That's called stealing. But I doubt you'd ever see the connection.
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Dreepa

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2006, 01:02 PM NHFT »

Sharing is nice when it's voluntary, when it's not voluntary it's NOT CALLED FREAKING SHARING!!!
Just wanted everyone to read this again.
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2006, 01:14 PM NHFT »

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After collecting an administrative fee of course, say 30%

how much can it cost?
money comes into one account and someone presses a button and it gets electronically transfered to all the other accounts...

I would gladly volunteer to come in every 6 months and press the button.

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Sharing is nice when it's voluntary, when it's not voluntary it's NOT CALLED FREAKING SHARING!!! That's called stealing. But I doubt you'd ever see the connection.

saying that paying your landowner for access to a location is voluntary because you can choose which landowner to pay is nice but it is NOT FREAKING VOLUNTARY because inorder to exist you have to occupy some space somewhere and if it is all legally occupied you are being stolen from while trying to excercise your right of self-ownership having an absolute right to your labor products (wages). But I doubt you'd ever see the connection.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 01:18 PM NHFT by FrankChodorov »
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2006, 02:16 PM NHFT »

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After collecting an administrative fee of course, say 30%

how much can it cost?
money comes into one account and someone presses a button and it gets electronically transfered to all the other accounts...

I would gladly volunteer to come in every 6 months and press the button.

You are very naive my friend.  ::)

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Sharing is nice when it's voluntary, when it's not voluntary it's NOT CALLED FREAKING SHARING!!! That's called stealing. But I doubt you'd ever see the connection.

saying that paying your landowner for access to a location is voluntary because you can choose which landowner to pay is nice but it is NOT FREAKING VOLUNTARY because inorder to exist you have to occupy some space somewhere and if it is all legally occupied you are being stolen from while trying to excercise your right of self-ownership having an absolute right to your labor products (wages). But I doubt you'd ever see the connection.

Nobody has a right to exist. Life is such that if you can't make it work you will die. Having others "share" their income with you so that you can live is not a workable system, period. And you have already admited that in your system if a person owes more economic rent than they recieve they will have to work until they die to pay share this economic rent.
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FrankChodorov

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2006, 02:50 PM NHFT »

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You are very naive my friend

I work in the banking software industry...

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Nobody has a right to exist

then you can't believe in the right of self-ownership because to exist is to occupy space.

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Life is such that if you can't make it work you will die.

you only have the individual equal access OPPORTUNITY right to the natural commons to ATTEMPT to sustain yourself so long as your right is not infringing on anyone else equal right to the same...forcing someone to provide you with sustenance is a positive right I do not recognize as it would be theft of labor products.

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Having others "share" their income with you so that you can live is not a workable system, period.

"income" is produced via labor...in the case of economic rent you as the landowner contribute no labor towards producing - it is unimproved land value.

economic rent naturally attaches to all location under scarcity conditions as two or more people compete for access to scarce locations...thus it derives from the mere presence of people existing and occupying space (the more people, the higher demand, the greater the economic rent) and from the labor of your neighbors as they labor to improve their property - improved land value.

if the landowner collects it as "income" (your term) it is nothing more than a tax on the labor products of those being excluded that violates their rights of self-ownership.

are you meditating yet on the koan I gave you?

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And you have already admited that in your system if a person owes more economic rent than they recieve they will have to work until they die to pay share this economic rent.

I have already twice given you 2 seperate scenarios that would not require a payment from you - are you just dumb or do I need to give them to you again?
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2006, 03:28 PM NHFT »

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You are very naive my friend
I work in the banking software industry...

As a janitor?

I write management and budgeting software for a living and I can tell you that a lot of work goes into keeping data accurate (software can only do so much). The "button" will only work flawlessly if we live in a perfect world and everyone entered correct data. And that's never going to happen.

You will have to hire thugs to collect economic rent from those who owe more than they recieve.
You will have to purchase servers and hire IT people for an "economic rent database" to keep track of people, properties, etc. Just like the IRS does today.
You will have to send out bills either by snail mail or by email to remind people to pay their economic rent.
You will have to have assesors to figure out how much is owed.
etc... etc... etc...

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Nobody has a right to exist
then you can't believe in the right of self-ownership because to exist is to occupy space.

I do not believe in the generalized concept of "rights". I think every person has their own idea of how they want to live and that's fine by me. If they agress against me I'll make the decision right then and there about what to do about it. I may also consult the general customs and conventions of the local community that I live in for how to deal with certain circumstances. Other than that we don't have rights. Because in order to have rights a higher power (government, etc) would have to guarantee those rights. Since without a guarantee what are rights but simply our feel good thoughts?

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Life is such that if you can't make it work you will die.
you only have the individual equal access OPPORTUNITY right to the natural commons to ATTEMPT to sustain yourself so long as your right is not infringing on anyone else equal right to the same...forcing someone to provide you with sustenance is a positive right I do not recognize as it would be theft of labor products.

See above on rights...

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Having others "share" their income with you so that you can live is not a workable system, period.
"income" is produced via labor...in the case of economic rent you as the landowner contribute no labor towards producing - it is unimproved land value.
economic rent naturally attaches to all location under scarcity conditions as two or more people compete for access to scarce locations...thus it derives from the mere presence of people existing and occupying space (the more people, the higher demand, the greater the economic rent) and from the labor of your neighbors as they labor to improve their property - improved land value.
if the landowner collects it as "income" (your term) it is nothing more than a tax on the labor products of those being excluded that violates their rights of self-ownership.
are you meditating yet on the koan I gave you?

You believe in equality, I do not. It's as simple as that.

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And you have already admited that in your system if a person owes more economic rent than they recieve they will have to work until they die to pay share this economic rent.
I have already twice given you 2 seperate scenarios that would not require a payment from you - are you just dumb or do I need to give them to you again?

I read your example as:

Welfare is great, you get all this free money and you never have to pay anything, others pay you...

Sure, it's great, unless you're the one paying into the system! All you talk about are the benefactors of the system while I'm more concerned about those who have to pay into it. So no, I am not dumb, I just like to consider the people who get stuck with paying for the rest of their lives while you only want to discuss the ones you benefit from this system.
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tracysaboe

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2006, 03:47 PM NHFT »

It's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

But Jesus Christ doesn't exist...

Yeah he does. And he exists in a lot of historical documents besides the Bible too.

Tracy
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Lex

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2006, 03:48 PM NHFT »

It's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
But Jesus Christ doesn't exist...
Yeah he does. And he exists in a lot of historical documents besides the Bible too.

He existed then he died. You can't have a personal relationship with a dead person.
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tracysaboe

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Re: Submission for KFP : "Property Taxes are Communism"
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2006, 03:53 PM NHFT »

But he resurected, and their are extra-biblical sources of that information as well.

Sorry. I'll shut up now. I didn't mean to hijack the hijacker. 

I mean, that would be RUDE!

Bill, I apologize for hijacking your hijack.

Tracy
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