Army Officer Refuses Deployment to Iraq

[tracysaboe]

I knew and served with some conscientious objectors who were outstanding soldiers. They were in the business of saving lives (or souls), and would refuse to use force even in self defense. They had my utmost respect.

I can't say that I have any respect for 1LT Watada, who wants to pick and choose which wars he'll fight. No matter how strongly he opposes this war, it is not illegal, and his orders to go there are lawful, and he agreed to go when he joined the army over three years ago.

I will grant him some respect if he refuses to go, and accepts whatever punishment the Army doles out, without fighting it or complaining about it. But by trying to resign without any consequences.... naw.

Kevin

Technicaly it IS illegal sinse Congress made no formal declaration of war.

TRacy

[KBCraig]

Technicaly it IS illegal sinse Congress made no formal declaration of war.

What is the legal format for a formal declaration of war? What is the minimum standard?

There is none. Congressional authorization for the president to deploy and use military force against "Nation X" is indistinguishable from Congress saying, "We declare war against 'Nation X'"

Such an end-run around moral bravery is, to use a common military term, "Charlie Sierra". It's an abbreviated euphamism for the offal output of domestic fowl. But even if Congress is chickenshit (oops!) about it, their current authorizations amount to declarations of war.

Kevin

[Kat Kanning]

Another one.  I bet she didn't choose the second tour of duty.

Eugene Soldier Refuses to Deploy to Iraq

AP | June 13 2006

A 21-year-old woman who refused to deploy with her Army unit to Iraq for a second tour has been arrested and will be returned to Fort Lewis, Wash., Eugene police said Monday.

Eugene Police spokesman Sgt. Rich Stronach said Spec. Suzanne Swift, 21, told officers she did not want to go back to Iraq. She was picked up Sunday night at the request of the Army.

Stronach said Swift at first did not say who she was but was identified by tattoos described in the warrant and was arrested at her family's home without incident.

She was listed as AWOL late last year and her unit left for Iraq without her. She served her first tour in Iraq with a military police unit in 2004, her mother, Sarah Rich, told Oregon Public Broadcasting.

Rich said her daughter broke down and said she could not return because of the war and the way she was treated. She said her daughter was belittled, called names, and frequently propositioned.

Swift is expected to be returned to Fort Lewis on Tuesday.

[tracysaboe]

Technicaly it IS illegal sinse Congress made no formal declaration of war.

What is the legal format for a formal declaration of war? What is the minimum standard?

There is none. Congressional authorization for the president to deploy and use military force against "Nation X" is indistinguishable from Congress saying, "We declare war against 'Nation X'"

Such an end-run around moral bravery is, to use a common military term, "Charlie Sierra". It's an abbreviated euphamism for the offal output of domestic fowl. But even if Congress is chickenshit (oops!) about it, their current authorizations amount to declarations of war.

Kevin

Thats just a lot of legal positivist gobbledegook.

Nothing in the constitution gives Congress the power to delegate such decisionmaking to the PResident -- which is what their "resolution" (meaning that wasn't even legally binding) did.

An official declaration of war means. Congress votes. And says it declares war.

It's pretty simple.

You're sounding like a lot of those liberals who believe the Constitution is a "living" document and open to interpretation.

Tracy

[Russell Kanning]

I wonder how many of them are not going back to Iraq.

[KBCraig]

An official declaration of war means. Congress votes. And says it declares war.

Where does the Constitution say that?

You're sounding like a lot of those liberals who believe the Constitution is a "living" document and open to interpretation.

I could retort that you sound like a lot of those liberals who find wording in the Constitution that simply isn't there. But I won't, since you're a friend and I respect your argument.

Simple fact is: the Constitution says Congress has the power to declare war. It doesn't say anything about how they go about it, nor that they have to utter any magic words.

Kevin

[Rocketman]

Y'know, if the U.S. was invaded and occupied by a foreign government's military, I'll bet none of us would give a damn whether the invasion was "legal" or not under the invading country's constitution.  We would simply know that we had been wronged on a grand scale, and we'd simply be enraged that our families, friends, and neighbors were being murdered left and right by foriegn soldiers stomping through our streets like they own the place.

[Kat Kanning]

Y'know, if the U.S. was invaded and occupied by a foreign government's military, I'll bet none of us would give a damn whether the invasion was "legal" or not under the invading country's constitution.  We would simply know that we had been wronged on a grand scale, and we'd simply be enraged that our families, friends, and neighbors were being murdered left and right by foriegn soldiers stomping through our streets like they own the place.

[tracysaboe]

If you want to individually volentarily go and fight Saddam Husain, then fine. Join a militia. Support a cause.

But don't steal money from other individuals who disagree with you to do it.

That's the problem with your "wife-beating" annalagy.

You're equating the collective US with individuals.

If you want to defend somebody. Fine. Use your own resources that those of others volentarily aquired. Don't use resources gained at the point of a gun for your "noble" ends.

Tracy

[FrankChodorov]

I agree with Tracy, Alan, Kat, Russell, Dreepa and Rocketman...

this war is unconstitutional and morally wrong.

[tracysaboe]

OK. I'm sorry.  I had very little time on my last break, and mis-read some stuff.

I apologize.



Tracy

[Caleb]

To take my survival of the fittest argument a bit further, how did Iraq get this way?  Saddam was allowed to take control.

?????

Allowed?

Care to play a little jeopardy:

"Hussein, the dictator of Iraq, joins a long list of dictators who took power without popular consent, all supported and sustained by THIS NATION."

Caleb

[FrankChodorov]

If I am correct, Saddam Hussein was ALLOWED to take power because nobody cared enough to do anything about it.

wasn't Saddam on the CIA payroll when he failed in a plot to assassinate Qasim in '59 and then came out of exile in Egypt when the CIA did finally off him in '63 to lead the Ba'ath Party's security agency?

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Nimmo_Saddam-CIA.htm

[AlanM]

If everybody took responsibility for every aspect of their lives

there would be no need of government.

[zrated]

there are lots of little things in the constitution that a lot of folks miss. i believe that the conflict in iraq is unconstitutional for a few reasons, one of which being that there was no declaration of war -

(dec?la?ra?tion Pronunciation Key  (dkl-rshn)
n.

   1. An explicit, formal announcement, either oral or written.
   2. The act or process of declaring.
   3. A statement of taxable goods or of properties subject to duty.
   4. Law.
         1. A formal statement by a plaintiff specifying the facts and circumstances constituting his or her cause of action.
         2. An unsworn statement of facts that is admissible as evidence.
   5. Games. A bid, especially the final bid of a hand in certain card games.

but also because the constitution (article 1: section allows congress to, "...provide for the calling forth  the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;" no where does it give congress the ability to provide for the calling forth of the militia for any foreign military action outside of the declaration of war. i remind everyone that the oft ignored 10th amendment explicitly disallows any modification of these powers outside of channels specified by the constitution.