right of self-ownership

[FrankChodorov]

Frank, does your system actually guarantee everyone a piece of land to stand on? I thought all that it guaranteed was a periodic check for one's share of the land tax revenue.  ???

theoretical yes but practically no because it would be impossible to administer and continually divide up the land as it is all of varying quality over locations.

better to use the subjective market to determine the return on land (economic rent) for each specific location as the equivalent of landownership and then share it directly and equally between neighbors in a community.

so it won't matter where anyone else chooses to locate - no one will be economically harmed and it will be the closes approximation to living in a perfect state of nature (individual access to the whole world).

In other words, under your system everyone would need to buy, rent, or be gifted a place to stand.

no there would be no purchase price to land (the price of land is simply capitalized economic rent at the time of sale)...only economic rent you shared with your neighbor (and they with you) to uphold their absolute right to their labor and hence self-ownership.

[DC]

..only economic RENT

[FrankChodorov]

..only economic RENT

economic rent is a bit different than the lease payment you would make to a landlord...

[BaRbArIaN]

In what way?   By making either you pretty much cede ownership to whoever is taking your money.   If you pay rent, you don't own, period.    Like land taxes, we don't own land in the US anymore, we rent it from the corrupt government (local, state and federal depending on where it is).   You used to be able to own things but alas no more.

[FrankChodorov]

In what way?   By making either you pretty much cede ownership to whoever is taking your money.   If you pay rent, you don't own, period.    Like land taxes, we don't own land in the US anymore, we rent it from the corrupt government (local, state and federal depending on where it is).   You used to be able to own things but alas no more.

well if you pay the economic rent to your neighbors to uphold their right of self-ownership yet retain title to the other bundled rights of land ownership yourself:

1. use
2. possession
3. exclusion
4. transferability

then who exactly does own it if not you?

[tracysaboe]

Frank. It's a stupid pole.

You know full well that just because you "need" something (even a 3D space) it doesn't mean it's a Right.

Post a pole that doesn't only have too leading choices.

Tracy

[FrankChodorov]

just because you "need" something (even a 3D space) it doesn't mean it's a Right

the right is to own oneself and thus requires human existence...

ok - you are in the camp (with Alan) that human existence can somehow be seperated from occupying 3D space where you are required to touch the ground because of gravity.

can you please describe to me the mechanism that you use to hover above the ground?

black helicopter or maybe you are an angel or a fairy Tracy?

[JonM]

just because you "need" something (even a 3D space) it doesn't mean it's a Right

ok - you are in the camp (with Alan) that human existence can somehow be seperated from occupying 3D space where you are required to touch the ground because of gravity.

can you please describe to me the mechanism that you use to hover above the ground (black helicopter maybe)?

personal hovercraft.  Next question?

[FrankChodorov]

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to figure out how my renting a 3rd story apartment is harming anyone else.  Your entire philosophy requires one to accept certain suppositions you posit as facts.  I do not accept your suppositions as fact, and therefore your philosophy is meaningless to me.

are you the landowner or the landless?

[JonM]

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to figure out how my renting a 3rd story apartment is harming anyone else.  Your entire philosophy requires one to accept certain suppositions you posit as facts.  I do not accept your suppositions as fact, and therefore your philosophy is meaningless to me.

are you the landowner or the landless?

I'm just a renter, hence the word "renting", so that makes me landless.  So far it hasn't crimped my lifestyle.

[FrankChodorov]

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to figure out how my renting a 3rd story apartment is harming anyone else.  Your entire philosophy requires one to accept certain suppositions you posit as facts.  I do not accept your suppositions as fact, and therefore your philosophy is meaningless to me.

are you the landowner or the landless?

I'm just a renter, hence the word "renting", so that makes me landless.  So far it hasn't crimped my lifestyle.

it is not a matter of whether or not your lifestyle is "crimped" but whether or not you believe in THE fundamental principle of self-ownership...

the lease payment that you make to the landlord is composed of:

a. a payment of use of the capital (buildings)
b. a payment for access to the land (economic rent)

in my system there would be (a) but not (b)...

[JonM]

I'm just a renter, hence the word "renting", so that makes me landless.  So far it hasn't crimped my lifestyle.

it is not a matter of whether or not your lifestyle is "crimped" but whether or not you believe in THE fundamental principle of self-ownership...

the lease payment that you make to the landlord is composed of:

a. a payment of use of the capital (buildings)
b. a payment for access to the land (economic rent)

in my system there would be (a) but not (b)...

Your system is semantics and bluster.  It is well served for those who sit around talking about a perfect world, but not well suited for those of us living in the imperfect world we inhabit.

It's YOUR fundamental principle of self-ownership.  Over the last few years I've not noticed you having very many people agree with you.

[FrankChodorov]

but not well suited for those of us living in the imperfect world we inhabit.

in the imperfect world that you inhabit do you pay the economic rent portion of your lease payment every month?

and I can assure you I pay the tax on my buildings (capital - built via human labor) portion of the property tax!

how's that for getting real?

It's YOUR fundamental principle of self-ownership

well give me your "real world" version of what exactly this fundamental principle of libertarianism means?

is a universal right a right at all if it has to be purchased or gifted?
is self (human existence) possible without occupying 3D space somewhere on the surface of the earth?

[Lex]

Frank, does your system actually guarantee everyone a piece of land to stand on? I thought all that it guaranteed was a periodic check for one's share of the land tax revenue.  ???

theoretical yes but practically no because it would be impossible to administer and continually divide up the land as it is all of varying quality over locations.

better to use the subjective market to determine the return on land (economic rent) for each specific location as the equivalent of landownership and then share it directly and equally between neighbors in a community.

so it won't matter where anyone else chooses to locate - no one will be economically harmed and it will be the closes approximation to living in a perfect state of nature (individual access to the whole world).

Ah, very interesting. So you concede that we cannot give everyone an 1/Nth piece of the earth yet you think that we can create an economic tax that will preserve self-ownership?

Why do you not think we can give everyone a 1/Nth piece of the earth? You just take the earth, divide it by the number of people on it and assign a lot to each person. Much simpler than all that stuff you are proposing with asessing property value, tax collecting, redistribution of economic rent, figuring out what to do with non-payers, etc.

[JonM]

but not well suited for those of us living in the imperfect world we inhabit.

in the imperfect world that you inhabit do you pay the economic rent portion of your lease payment every month?

and I can assure you I pay the tax on my buildings (capital - built via human labor) portion of the property tax!

how's that for getting real?

My rent isn't itemized.  It's one flat fee, what they do with it is their problem.

It's YOUR fundamental principle of self-ownership

well give me your "real world" version of what exactly this fundamental principle of libertarianism means?

is a universal right a right at all if it has to be purchased or gifted?
is self (human existence) possible without occupying 3D space somewhere on the surface of the earth?

I believe my right of self-ownership includes the right for an opportunity to survive, it does not include the right to survive.  If I am denied to chance to work for my survival, then I have been wronged.  Beyond that the world owes me nothing.