*opens up a can of worms*

[Dreepa]

I too am a no comment but:


What about people who don't think that the baby is 'alive' yet?  Not saying this is my idea but I have heard/seen it used.

[cathleeninnh]

Alive is such an all or nothing term. We gradually give children control over their lives. A fetus has the potential to one day become a functioning adult. People don't argue if there doesn't seem to be much potential.

Cathleen

[Thespis]

Without getting into the debate, I would like to bring up the point that abortions will happen one way or another. They will either happen in back alleys with black market doctors, or they will happen in legitimate, sterile medical facilities. The former stems from government regulation, the latter stems from freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Regardless of whether or not abortion is murder, I don't think it should be left to government to decide.

[estoves]

I am not really sure on this position but i think that you can do an abortion on an early stage of the pregnancy without it being murder. If you do it after a certain date it would be murder.

[cathleeninnh]

Even if the law sets such a date, what makes that date more acceptable than the day before or the day after? Even viability seem rather arbitrary as a criterion. Preemies get care to replicate what the womb provided. Are zygotes next? Maybe abortion will be required when the receptacle isn't a garbage can. Imagine the cost to the taxpayer then!

Cathleen

[Braddogg]

Without getting into the debate, I would like to bring up the point that abortions will happen one way or another. They will either happen in back alleys with black market doctors, or they will happen in legitimate, sterile medical facilities. The former stems from government regulation, the latter stems from freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Regardless of whether or not abortion is murder, I don't think it should be left to government to decide.

Your end position may be defendable, but I can't see how with that line of argument.  If the thing in the womb is alive, then it has the right to its life.  Saying that that life can be ended only in a sterile environment . . . well, would you say that about any other form of murder?  That gang violence should be legal so long as the gangs only cut each other up in hospitals?  It just strikes me as inconsistent, though I might be missing something.  If I am, I (honestly) await your correction.

[Thespis]

If the thing in the womb is alive

That's the crux of the question, and you'll forgive me if I'd just rather not get into the quagmire of "when does life begin." I'm only putting it out there, that if this is going to take place, why not make it safer for the mother? If you believe that life starts at conception, then you might believe the mother gets what she deserves for aborting in the first place, but not everyone believes that life begins at conception. Why can't the people who feel perfectly justified in having an abortion have a safe environment with competent doctors? This whole issue continues to be judged based on one's own personal belief system. And, when you let one group's belief system trump another, you run into many, many problems, which is why I don't think government should be involved at all.

Also, what do you do in the case of rape or incest?

[Dreepa]

Also, what do you do in the case of rape or incest?

I never buy that argument... I mean if they say it is a life than it is still a life if it was rape or incest.

[Braddogg]

If the thing in the womb is alive

That's the crux of the question, and you'll forgive me if I'd just rather not get into the quagmire of "when does life begin." I'm only putting it out there, that if this is going to take place, why not make it safer for the mother? If you believe that life starts at conception, then you might believe the mother gets what she deserves for aborting in the first place, but not everyone believes that life begins at conception. Why can't the people who feel perfectly justified in having an abortion have a safe environment with competent doctors? This whole issue continues to be judged based on one's own personal belief system. And, when you let one group's belief system trump another, you run into many, many problems, which is why I don't think government should be involved at all.

Also, what do you do in the case of rape or incest?

Some contemporary philosophers claim that infanticide in the case of the retarded is justifiable.  If you ask enough people, you'll get someone supporting something.  In which case, the only option for government is to have one person or group of people's belief system trump someone else's.  Even in the preservation of property rights, one's belief system trumps another's.  Only an anarchist can possibly use that argument and be internally consistant.  I'll reference my first post on this topic: I noted that so long as murder is illegal, abortion should be illegal.  I'm an anarchist -- I support the end of murder laws.  Murder laws force one group's belief system -- that human life should be protected -- upon someone who may disagree with that system.

[Thespis]

I'm just saying that not everyone agrees when life begins.

And, I'm done with this debate. It's too polarizing.

[tracysaboe]

I'm just saying that not everyone agrees when life begins.

And, I'm done with this debate. It's too polarizing.

Actually, any Embroylogist and any embryologists text-book will tell you that life begins at conception.

Even most prochoice arguments nowdays don't claim it's not alive.  They claim it's alive but it doesn't posess some quality called personhood.

Here's an article I wrote for a Controversy paper in my English class when I was in College.

http://ed.augie.edu/~tosaboe/abortion.html

Tracy

[Caleb]

Of course abortion is a murder of a human being.  You can look at it under a microscope, and see that it is human dna.  And since it differs from that of the mother, it clearly is NOT "my body".

That having been said, I don't think there should be a law against it.  Then again, I don't think there should be a *LAW* against anything.  Morally, abortion is completely repugnant, and is one of the most immoral actions any person can commit (health issues excepting).

[Braddogg]

Of course abortion is a murder of a human being.  You can look at it under a microscope, and see that it is human dna.  And since it differs from that of the mother, it clearly is NOT "my body".

Eh, there has to be more than just the appearance of DNA.  After all, my skin cells have the full complement of homo sapiens DNA, yet we don't consider a shower mass murder.

[tracysaboe]

Of course abortion is a murder of a human being.  You can look at it under a microscope, and see that it is human dna.  And since it differs from that of the mother, it clearly is NOT "my body".

That having been said, I don't think there should be a law against it.  Then again, I don't think there should be a *LAW* against anything.  Morally, abortion is completely repugnant, and is one of the most immoral actions any person can commit (health issues excepting).

If there's laws against murder -- to be consistent their should be laws against abortion.

LEgalize murder.

There's an article on anti-state about that, but don't have the resources to search for it at the moment.

Tracy

[Gabo]

Gabo, the problem is that baby was FORCED into being in that position where it needed to stay in the womb for survival. If the Mother and FAther forced the baby into that position it has a responsibility to care for it.

Just like it has a responibility to care for it after it's born.

Two people cannot knowingly carry out the conception of a baby.
The only thing they can do is have sex, which may or may not lead to conception.

Conception happens separate from sex, and does not fail or succeed depending on what the mother and father want.
Conception occurs on its own, and therefore the mother and father are not responsible for what happens because of it.



If I water my garden every day to care for my plants, should I be responsible for a weed that springs up?
Did I purposefully cause the growth of the weed by watering?  Should I be forced to care for it?
Just as the growth of a weed is not directly caused by watering, the conception of a child is not directly caused by sex.


If you wish to blame someone for unwanted pregnancy, blame the sperm.
They are the ones that directly cause it, yet they bear no burden from it.