*opens up a can of worms*

[Jared]

wow, i wish id realized earlier that this post had been moved. it's interesting to see this debate. personally, i've never seen a good argument for keeping abortion legal (another than "i'm an anarchist and i don't believe in laws"). it's very amusing to watch people try to argue that the senseless killing of human life is not murder. i've pretty much stop trying to argue with pro-choice folks. you have somehow decided that this particular type of murder is A OK, and i will not change your mind.


btw, the schiavo case was a murder because she did not give any consent before her incident to have the feeding tube removed. her husband was a terrible man who would not even give the hospital staff permission to brush her teeth, let alone attempt rehabilitation. it's a shame that the media got the story so wrong. they should have at least shot the poor woman in the head so she wouldn't have to starve to death. it would have been much more humane.

[Pat McCotter]

the essential qualities of a human being that makes them deserving of rights are:

sentience - which includes consciousness and the ability to feel pain.

What about the ability to feel pleasure? Which is more important?

What is consciousness? If a computer passes the Turing test, is it conscious?

you need higher brain function for pleasure/pain and consciousness

No. Pleasure/pain mechanisms are the basis of survival. Unless you are saying that all organisms with a nervous system that causes recoil from stimuli are included in your definition.

[MobileDigit]

I am against the killing of any human life that has attained the personhood status of human being as designated by higher brain function (sentience - consciousness and ability to feel pleasure/pain) and recognized by society as being deserving of legal protection.

You are against killing in self-defense?

[FrankChodorov]

they should have at least shot the poor woman in the head so she wouldn't have to starve to death. it would have been much more humane.

the assumption is that she could feel the pain associated with "starving to death"...

the autopsy afterwards proved conclusively that she suffered from massive brain damage and did not have the  brain function for feeling pain.

[FrankChodorov]

the essential qualities of a human being that makes them deserving of rights are:

sentience - which includes consciousness and the ability to feel pain.

What about the ability to feel pleasure? Which is more important?

What is consciousness? If a computer passes the Turing test, is it conscious?

you need higher brain function for pleasure/pain and consciousness

No. Pleasure/pain mechanisms are the basis of survival. Unless you are saying that all organisms with a nervous system that causes recoil from stimuli are included in your definition.

no we are talking about sentience (consciousness too) only seen in human beings...

[FrankChodorov]

I am against the killing of any human life that has attained the personhood status of human being as designated by higher brain function (sentience - consciousness and ability to feel pleasure/pain) and recognized by society as being deserving of legal protection.

You are against killing in self-defense?

no

[tracysaboe]

they should have at least shot the poor woman in the head so she wouldn't have to starve to death. it would have been much more humane.

the assumption is that she could feel the pain associated with "starving to death"...

the autopsy afterwards proved conclusively that she suffered from massive brain damage and did not have the  brain function for feeling pain.

Prooved is way to strong a word.

That was 1 doctors oppinion -- out of many doctors.  We don't know enough about the brain to know where ALL the pain centers are. There's lots of redunancy in the brain.

Tracy

[FrankChodorov]

they should have at least shot the poor woman in the head so she wouldn't have to starve to death. it would have been much more humane.

the assumption is that she could feel the pain associated with "starving to death"...

the autopsy afterwards proved conclusively that she suffered from massive brain damage and did not have the  brain function for feeling pain.

Prooved is way to strong a word.

That was 1 doctors oppinion -- out of many doctors.  We don't know enough about the brain to know where ALL the pain centers are. There's lots of redunancy in the brain.

the autopsy concluding that no treatment could have improved her condition because her brain had atrophied to half of it's normal size and that she was completely blind thus unaware of her surroundings when her feeding tube was removed.

she did not "starve to death" she died from dehydration...

[Dreepa]

the autopsy concluding that no treatment could have improved her condition because her brain had atrophied to half of it's normal size and that she was completely blind thus unaware of her surroundings when her feeding tube was removed.

she did not "starve to death" she died from dehydration...

Plus who should get to decide if not her husband?  Or should the 'state' decide.

Who paid for that shit?  Pull the damn plug!

[FrankChodorov]

the autopsy concluding that no treatment could have improved her condition because her brain had atrophied to half of it's normal size and that she was completely blind thus unaware of her surroundings when her feeding tube was removed.

she did not "starve to death" she died from dehydration...

Plus who should get to decide if not her husband?  Or should the 'state' decide.

Who paid for that shit?  Pull the damn plug!

without a written legal directive state law in Fla. concludes that the spouse is in the best position to make the decision since they are the closest to knowing what may have been the wishes if the other spouse becomes incapacitated as was the case we are discussing...

[Dreepa]

without a written legal directive state law in Fla. concludes that the spouse is in the best position to make the decision since they are the closest to knowing what may have been the wishes if the other spouse becomes incapacitated as was the case we are discussing...

Exactly... .Frank don't be suprised if some people agree with you.

[FrankChodorov]

without a written legal directive state law in Fla. concludes that the spouse is in the best position to make the decision since they are the closest to knowing what may have been the wishes if the other spouse becomes incapacitated as was the case we are discussing...

Exactly... .Frank don't be suprised if some people agree with you.

never surprised but always grateful...especially from any reformed catholics out there!

[intergraph19]

In the Terry Shivo case, she acctually was lucid and was getting better, when allowed to be seen and administered to.  Her brain damage was not totaly irreversible and she was not brain dead.  She was killed, and that is murder.

she was unhooked from the machines that kept her alive and she was allowed to die...it was not murder.

when the autoposy was done it was conclusively found that she had no higher brain function capabilities that were irreversible...

The "machines" she was "unhooked" from was a feeding tube.  It was murder.

Is that a yes or no to partial birth?

and who is being prosecuted for this so-called "murder"? (I rest my case)

I am against the killing of any human life that has attained the personhood status of human being as designated by higher brain function (sentience - consciousness and ability to feel pleasure/pain) and recognized by society as being deserving of legal protection.

prior to this designation it is killing but not murder
after this designation it is killing and it is murder

Can I say OJ Simpson?  Not every murder is prosocuted. But Terri is a who different discussion and there was a great deal of money to be made there by a husband who was not all that nice to his wife, was having an affair when her accident happened and there was evidence showing she had been beaten a couple times by this guy.  Not to mention, the parents BEGGED him to let them take care of her, at thier own cost many many times and he refused. 

[FrankChodorov]

so Mr. Schiavo when did you stop beating your wife (who is in a persistent vegitative state and can't actually make the claim herself)??

so Mr. Schiavo maybe it was you who caused your wife to be in this state??

none of this matters...it only matters what the law says and in this case and in the abortion debate, society has determined that where there is no sentience (consciousness and ability to fell pleasure/pain) defined by higher brain function then there is no "person" deserving of legal protection...and if there is no "person" deserving legal protection there is no murder if the mother or husband chooses to take positive action to ending that human life.

[Dreepa]

  Not to mention, the parents BEGGED him to let them take care of her, at thier own cost many many times and he refused. 

Parents.... who cares what the parents say.  She was married... therefore the husband decides.  My wife's parents aren't going to make any choices for my wife if she were in that situation.