July 31, 2006: Russell arrested

[Lex]

would you like if everyone demonstrated whatever they wanted inside of the courthouses?

Absolutely, yes!

[slim]

Michelle,

I hope you do not get that discouraged because one persons idea about how we should go about fighting for freedom. Everything FSP activists do will not be seen the same in different peoples eyes. If we are fighting for the same cause that will be the glue that holds us together. One person may see a protest that breaks laws as a terrible act of civil disobedience, others may see it as a shining beacon. We all have different opinions and come from different backgrounds. I believe that criticism is a great thing, it makes you look at the actions you are taking and reevaluate the actions you will take in the future.

I personally think that the current policy on drugs is pure and simply WRONG, and because of that strong feeling I may take steps that some disagree with. Even if others criticize the actions I and others take I will always be comforted by the fact that we will make a difference.

If you have any doubts that the FSP is for you I would like to suggest that you attend porcfest next year, there you will be able to see who else will be standing next to you as we proceed toward a truly "Free State"


Diversity will make us stronger

[FrankChodorov]

It is simply revisionist history to say that Russ was arrested "simply for handing out flyers". HE WASN'T.

Nonsense. They had no business trying to keep him from going inside the post office. They were the initiators. Keeping him from going into a place he has every right to go.

this is once again a complete failure of the lack of understanding of the difference between common property & rights which are INDIVIDUAL rights held equally and collective property and righs which are GROUP rights not necessarily held equally.

freedom of speech/thoughts, assembly and movement (via right of ways) are INDIVIDUAL rights held in common...you have the right to engage in these activities so long as your action don't interfere with the equal rights of anyone else.

so when you are on the sidewalk you can excercise your individual right of way so long as you are not impeding anyone else - that is why you can't stand still.

the building that houses the IRS office is collective property and you have no right to use it other than for it's stated official purpose (to transact business with the IRS) unless you ask permission of all the other owners FIRST or their delgated authority (the state).

the officers asked Russell what his intentions were and he stated that they were not to transact business with the IRS in their official capacity.

the officers then determined where the line between common general purpose (lobbies, auditoriums, walkways, etc) and collective specific purposes end/begin and told him as the agent of the collective authority he could not transgress that line and if he did he would be justly apprehended as it was an initiation of force on his part.

[FrankChodorov]

did I mention btw that I like Russell alot and I wish him the best in this ordeal?

I think it is a misguided effort on his part because society generally approves of collective property but Russell is a christian/emotive anarchist who doesn't particularly care to engage in philosophical debates about the nature of the state, authority, justice, common/collective, rights, etc as it relates to effective action political or otherwise...

[d_goddard]

I think you'll find that when Russell is released and reads or hears Denis's opinion of what happened, his reaction will be respectful and tolerant.

I think you're wrong!!
He'll probably laugh at how ridiculously pointless us "politico" types are, and maybe even point out that's why the most simple, obvious thing to do is to disobey the state purposefully

Just my guess, tho

[FrankChodorov]

  Would the upstairs where the IRS works normally be off limits? Do people go up there for appointments etc.? I ask because if it is not an area people are normally allowed then I could see why the feds would get anal (even though they should not as we pay their salary). If I go into a cafe I can go up to the counter and order but they would get mad if I went into the kitchen or an employees only area. I know that is private property and government property in theory belongs to all of us, but was that the case in this instance? I am just thinking for future actions if it would be better to for example, have stayed on the lower level and laid the flyers out in front of you then sat down. Media is more likely to stick to a story about a man who went into a post office, sat down and tried to hand out flyers than one about a man who tried to push past federal officers in a post office, even though saying push is pushing it. It will not be long before a fed has a fit and beats the shit out of a non-violent protestor because they don't fall for any of the feds taunts. I would not put any stock in a fed saying they like you or don't want to arrest you but have to. If my friend became a fed, arrested me, then told me he is sorry for doing so I would say one thing to him,

   "Go fuck yourself asshole. If this is bothering you so much why did you arrest me in the first place? Oh, I know, you have no balls, no convictions, no morals and no values aside from earning a bunch of fiat currency. Stop trying to justify your stupidity."

     Is Russell going to fast? Tell him thanks for having such big balls.

you have no right to use collective property in a way that is outside of it's intended purpose that can only happen in common areas...

Russell made the mistake of telling them what he was going to do when asked and it was determined that it was outside of it's official purposes...if he had just walked in and started handing out pamphlets to the employees without the authorities knowing they would have immediately called them and he would have been arrested inside.

when the protestors got arrested in Judd Gregg's office they came to inquire about an appointment to meet with their representative (legitimate) and then stayed there in protest when he wouldn't meet with them (illegitimate) and were arrested - knowing full well that they would be.

[FrankChodorov]

you'll remember that MLK protesters marched in public right of ways (common right) and forced private businesses to be regulated by the state (lunch counters) via commerce clause/public accomadation laws - an achilles heel they exploited plus arbitrary rules for bus seating/public schools etc.

once the media showed the rest of the nation the brutality and arbitrary nature of these laws in the south - the rest is history...

[tracysaboe]

Frank you're a moron. This was GOVERNMENT property. Not common property nor communal property.

Tracy

It is simply revisionist history to say that Russ was arrested "simply for handing out flyers". HE WASN'T.

Nonsense. They had no business trying to keep him from going inside the post office. They were the initiators. Keeping him from going into a place he has every right to go.

this is once again a complete failure of the lack of understanding of the difference between common property & rights which are INDIVIDUAL rights held equally and collective property and righs which are GROUP rights not necessarily held equally.

freedom of speech/thoughts, assembly and movement (via right of ways) are INDIVIDUAL rights held in common...you have the right to engage in these activities so long as your action don't interfere with the equal rights of anyone else.

so when you are on the sidewalk you can excercise your individual right of way so long as you are not impeding anyone else - that is why you can't stand still.

the building that houses the IRS office is collective property and you have no right to use it other than for it's stated official purpose (to transact business with the IRS) unless you ask permission of all the other owners FIRST or their delgated authority (the state).

the officers asked Russell what his intentions were and he stated that they were not to transact business with the IRS in their official capacity.

the officers then determined where the line between common general purpose (lobbies, auditoriums, walkways, etc) and collective specific purposes end/begin and told him as the agent of the collective authority he could not transgress that line and if he did he would be justly apprehended as it was an initiation of force on his part.

[Kat Kanning]

I can feel the love.

[d_goddard]

Frank you're a moron.

Tacy I just smited you for the ad-hominem.

[tracysaboe]

Frank you're a moron.

Tacy I just smited you for the ad-hominem.

It's not ad hominum if it's true.

He's a thread hijacker. Plain and simple. With no ability whatsoever to say anything except this pre-written retoric he's been spouting for years.

I could be vengefull and smite you back -- but, the world never got anywhere by retaliating against each other.

Tracy

[aries]

In the interest of unhijacking this thread I motion that all interaction between forum members be civil and polite.

Frank - I think you have an idea when something you say is going to start a flame war. Please consider how you phrase things.
Tracy - an ad hominem is an ad hominem if it's true and especially if it's true - it's just using someone's charachter flaw to make their argument look bad rather than using superior logic.

[aries]

when the protestors got arrested in Judd Gregg's office they came to inquire about an appointment to meet with their representative (legitimate) and then stayed there in protest when he wouldn't meet with them (illegitimate) and were arrested - knowing full well that they would be.

We're arguing about principles, not legally legitimate actions.

Russell had every reason to believe that handing out those flyers or attempting to could have led to his arrest. He did not back down because the law says that doing so is an "illegitimate" way of getting a point across, he did it because the law is irrellevant in his (and most folks here) ethical reasoning.

[FrankChodorov]

This was GOVERNMENT property. Not common property nor communal property.

I never said "communal" property

I said "collective" property

government property is collective property.

rights of way on sidewalks/roads & freedom of speech, thoughts, assembly are all individual equal access rights held in common...the state's sole role is to insure individual rights to these are upheld.

the use of collective property (government) is delegated to the elected authority of the people who can dictate the terms of use PRIOR to use.

if you don't understand the difference you will continue in futile attempts to win people over...

[FrankChodorov]

I can feel the love.

send my regards to Russell - I am very fond of him personally.