Vegans - B12

[Lex]

Albert  Einstein    scientist    vegetarian

Looks like he died a year after switching to a vegetarian diet.
http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html

Benjamin  Franklin    scientist    vegetarian

He was only a vegetarian in his early years to save money but later changed his mind and went back to eating meat...

Carl  Lewis    Olympic Track Star    vegan

Only vegan while training.

Charles  Darwin    British naturalist    vegetarian

I couldn't find any evidence that he was a vegetarian, but I found this:

Darwin's approach is very much in harmony with people who are against speciesism as it's called today, those who would give rights to animals. Darwin abhorred cruelty to animals. He remonstrated with people who he saw abusing animals. He would take them up on it on the spot. He was a J.P., a justice of the peace, a magistrate for his county, and there are cases of him sentencing people to punishment because of the way they treated their pigs or their horses. Darwin even respected plants, and there are descriptions of him going into his greenhouse and talking to them and stroking their leaves as if they were alive. Darwin wasn't a tree-hugger; I don't mean that at all. He respected life. He wasn't averse to killing animals and dissecting them, he wasn't a vegetarian, but his vision of us all being netted together ? the human races as one family and all of life as part of the great tree of life whose creator, through the laws of nature, is God ? is Darwin's way of looking at the world.

Leo   Tolstoy    Russian writer    vegetarian

Consumed a great deal of meat before he switched to vegetarianism especially since he was an avid hunter.

Leonardo   da Vinci    artist    vegetarian

Seems like was a vegetarian most of his life but he was raised on a non-vegetarian diet.

Mohandas  Ghandi    humanitarian    vegan

Ate meat when he was young then switched to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovo-vegetarian) and only later in his life did he become a strict vegetarian.

Anyways, don't feel like going through the rest of the people but it seems that pretty much everyone grew up eating meat which is the most important time when your body grows and develops. The fact that some of them had switched to a vegetarian diets later in life does not mean that strict-vegetarianism/veganism is healthy from the beginning.

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to live on a vegan diet just that I don't think it's a necessary risk.

Btw, have you had your B12 levels tested?

[Lex]

Oh...I thought I had read that she was on the pill when she got prego.... ???

She was. You had asked if we are using birth control not whether we had used birth control in the past.

Are you guys gunna have a bunch of kids?

I don't know. Although I suppose it's inevitable without birth control, right?

[Money Dollars]

Are you guys gunna have a bunch of kids?

I don't know. Although I suppose it's inevitable without birth control, right?

Just because yall aren't using it today doesn't mean you won't change your mind tomorrow, right?

I know your wife wants more kids than she can count on one hand(well, she wrote that, but she could have changed her mind)...so how about you?

[Money Dollars]

Albert  Einstein    scientist    vegetarian

Looks like he died a year after switching to a vegetarian diet.
http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html

doesn't matter when or how long, he was a one. Let me get some quotes...

"So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, but am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."

"I have always eaten animal flesh with a somewhat guilty conscience."

"Although I have been prevented by outward circumstances from observing a strictly vegetarian diet, I have long been an adherent to the cause in principle. Besides agreeing with the aims of vegetarianism for aesthetic and moral reasons, it is my view that a vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind."

Benjamin  Franklin    scientist    vegetarian

He was only a vegetarian in his early years to save money but later changed his mind and went back to eating meat...

Doesn't matter, he was one at some point, I didn't say when or for how long...reason does not matter.

Carl  Lewis    Olympic Track Star    vegan

Only vegan while training.

So you agree that he was vegan at some point.....

Charles  Darwin    British naturalist    vegetarian

I couldn't find any evidence that he was a vegetarian, but I found this:

Darwin's approach is very much in harmony with people who are against speciesism as it's called today, those who would give rights to animals. Darwin abhorred cruelty to animals. He remonstrated with people who he saw abusing animals. He would take them up on it on the spot. He was a J.P., a justice of the peace, a magistrate for his county, and there are cases of him sentencing people to punishment because of the way they treated their pigs or their horses. Darwin even respected plants, and there are descriptions of him going into his greenhouse and talking to them and stroking their leaves as if they were alive. Darwin wasn't a tree-hugger; I don't mean that at all. He respected life. He wasn't averse to killing animals and dissecting them, he wasn't a vegetarian, but his vision of us all being netted together ? the human races as one family and all of life as part of the great tree of life whose creator, through the laws of nature, is God ? is Darwin's way of looking at the world.

not proof, but how about this:
http://www.european-vegetarian.org/evu/english/news/news962/omnivore.html

Darwin wrote:

    "The grading of forms, organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and that our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and that we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals."

In his book The Origin of Man he tells us:

    "Although we know nothing for certain about the time or place that man shed the thick hair that covered him, with much probability of being right we could say that he must have lived in a warm country where conditions were favourable to the frugivorous way of life which, to judge from analogies, must have been the way man lived."

Darwin disagrees with you as to what humans are meant to eat. Should I believe Lex or Darwin  ???

Leo   Tolstoy    Russian writer    vegetarian

Consumed a great deal of meat before he switched to vegetarianism especially since he was an avid hunter.

Glad you agree that he was a vegetarian....

Leonardo   da Vinci    artist    vegetarian

Seems like was a vegetarian most of his life but he was raised on a non-vegetarian diet.

Mohandas  Ghandi    humanitarian    vegan

Ate meat when he was young then switched to a vegetarian diet (lacto-ovo-vegetarian) and only later in his life did he become a strict vegetarian.

Most people try to better/improve themselves in life.....those are some good examples.....

Anyways, don't feel like going through the rest of the people but it seems that pretty much everyone grew up eating meat which is the most important time when your body grows and develops. The fact that some of them had switched to a vegetarian diets later in life does not mean that strict-vegetarianism/veganism is healthy from the beginning.

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to live on a vegan diet just that I don't think it's a necessary risk.

whatever.....I don't do it for heath reason....but I think it is funny that you think it is a risk.

Btw, have you had your B12 levels tested?

No. Why would I?
Maybe I will next time I go to the doctor....but I don't plan on going to the doctor...

When will you decide to Vax the kid?

I can't figure out how he decides what is a health risk, and what isn't....

[Pat K]

I thank all Veg Heads more meat for me.

[Pat K]

Though I guess that makes me a meat head LOL.

[Money Dollars]

Sounds like Lex is at the point in life where he is "finding himself"..

me too....
society is fucked up....I can't be happy living my life riding the rails society has set up for me...but it's not easy blazing your own trail...and you never know where it will lead you...luckily there are many good examples for me to follow...but even that is not easy...nothing worth doing is easy

[Money Dollars]

The human physiology is very similar across humans and part of our physiology is our nutritional requirements and how our digestive system functions. When I say that we are ment to eat meat I am simply saying that our bodies are suited for consuming and digesting flesh and there are many nutrients that we get from meat that we cannot easily get through other methods. So it just makes sense to eat meat if our bodies are suited for the purpose and we greatly benefit from doing so and are likely to get sick if we do not (unless we take supplaments to make up for missing nutrients).

Here is a great response to this line of thinking....

http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qaphys.htm

There has been much dissension among scientists regarding the topic of human physiology and diet, and opinions have spanned the continuum from one end to the other. The fact is, human physiology does not fit neatly into any of the three major categories of mammalian diets: carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous. We have a few traits from each of these classifications, which makes it easy for researchers to "prove" their position merely by pointing out those characteristics that suit their particular opinion.

It is often suggested that specific features of human anatomy or physiology dictate our behavior. However, from the perspective of diet, our physical makeup only prescribes our nutritional requirements, not how specific nutrients must be obtained. For instance, although we have a nutritional need for iron, there are many dietary sources of iron. Nutritionally speaking, it is irrelevant whether we get our iron from plant or animal sources; what matters is simply that we get it.

The argument that "biology is destiny" is typically used to justify a particular eating style. In that light, we must acknowledge that humans are the only species on Earth that appears to have no idea what its ideal diet should be. We are also the only species that has self-inflicted diet-related diseases, caused extensive environmental destruction through basic food production, and created pathogenic infestations that widely infect our food supply.

This type of reasoning also blatantly ignores a critical element of human evolution -- the aspect of choice. The arguments that "humans are meant to eat meat" or " humans have always eaten meat" are certainly no rational defenses for its continuation. If we were to accept this type of twisted logic, we would also have to say that humans have always murdered, raped, enslaved, and committed other heinous acts that our culture today finds reprehensible. Unlike most other animals, humans can choose what foods to eat. Sadly, our poor choices in the past have ravaged our land; fouled our air and waterways; heaped immeasurable suffering upon other species; and undermined our own health.

Our ability to digest a wide variety of foods undoubtedly contributed to our species' survival throughout history. Today, however, our dietary choices have more to do with tradition, culture, economics, politics, and availability than with some predetermined fate. It is time for our species to behave responsibly and select those foods that best sustain the Earth, the animals, and ourselves. Only then can we truly say we that humans have evolved in body, spirit, and wisdom.

[d_goddard]

Thanks, MD and JigglyPuff, for holding up the vegetarian (of whatever sect) argument on this thread, thereby absolving me of any nagging feeling that I should do so

[Lex]

Here is a great response to this line of thinking....
http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qaphys.htm

There has been much dissension among scientists regarding the topic of human physiology and diet, and opinions have spanned the continuum from one end to the other. The fact is, human physiology does not fit neatly into any of the three major categories of mammalian diets: carnivorous, herbivorous, or omnivorous. We have a few traits from each of these classifications, which makes it easy for researchers to "prove" their position merely by pointing out those characteristics that suit their particular opinion.

It is often suggested that specific features of human anatomy or physiology dictate our behavior. However, from the perspective of diet, our physical makeup only prescribes our nutritional requirements, not how specific nutrients must be obtained. For instance, although we have a nutritional need for iron, there are many dietary sources of iron. Nutritionally speaking, it is irrelevant whether we get our iron from plant or animal sources; what matters is simply that we get it.

The argument that "biology is destiny" is typically used to justify a particular eating style. In that light, we must acknowledge that humans are the only species on Earth that appears to have no idea what its ideal diet should be. We are also the only species that has self-inflicted diet-related diseases, caused extensive environmental destruction through basic food production, and created pathogenic infestations that widely infect our food supply.

This type of reasoning also blatantly ignores a critical element of human evolution -- the aspect of choice. The arguments that "humans are meant to eat meat" or " humans have always eaten meat" are certainly no rational defenses for its continuation. If we were to accept this type of twisted logic, we would also have to say that humans have always murdered, raped, enslaved, and committed other heinous acts that our culture today finds reprehensible. Unlike most other animals, humans can choose what foods to eat. Sadly, our poor choices in the past have ravaged our land; fouled our air and waterways; heaped immeasurable suffering upon other species; and undermined our own health.

Our ability to digest a wide variety of foods undoubtedly contributed to our species' survival throughout history. Today, however, our dietary choices have more to do with tradition, culture, economics, politics, and availability than with some predetermined fate. It is time for our species to behave responsibly and select those foods that best sustain the Earth, the animals, and ourselves. Only then can we truly say we that humans have evolved in body, spirit, and wisdom.

The part in bold is the only reasonable argument I can see. And I have not yet found convincing detailed arguments that small-scale organic farming including animals is unsustainable and/or unresponsible. I totally agree that the big business meat industry is very bad but it seems that going completely vegan is a bit overkill in response to that. I think that the meat industry and vegans are at two extremes and that there is a middle ground which includes eating a little bit of healthy organically raised meat or wild game.

[Lex]

I posted this link before and I'm posting it again. It is probably the most thorough discussion of the question "Are we vegetarians or omnivors?". Note that the author is a long time vegetarian and wrote the article to promote vegetarianism in a round about way. His conclusion is that we are in fact omnivors but that this should not stop us from practicing vegetarianism. It is an interesting perspective and one I would like to think about more and discuss here.

Comparative Anatomy and Physiology Brought Up to Date
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

Excerpt:

Should You Eat Meat?

The objective of this paper has been to examine the claims made in various comparative "proofs" of diets, and not to promote one diet over another. Similarly, this website does not seek to promote a particular diet. Instead, the focus here is on providing you with information for your consideration and evaluation.

With that in mind, the question of whether you should eat meat is a question that only you can answer. The role of spiritual or moral factors in such a decision is at your discretion, i.e., you choose whether to include such factors in the decision process. As a veg*n for moral/spiritual reasons, I strongly encourage you to consider such factors, if appropriate in your case.

It is certainly not my intent here to promote meat-eating, only to clarify the scientific facts, and to hopefully dispel some of the myths/crank science associated with raw/veg*n diets. However, ultimately, diet is your personal responsibility, and your personal decision, as well.

A few comments are relevant here, in context.

    * The fact that domesticated/feedlot meat is potentially harmful has been mentioned a number of times in this paper.

    * SAD diet not a good idea. As the SAD/SWD diets have (deservedly) bad reputations and use domesticated/feedlot meats, adopting or following such a diet is not a very good idea.

    * Propensity to consume fauna might not serve best interests in modern society. Hamilton and Busse [1978, p. 765] note:

          The human propensity to expand dietary meat consumption seems to be a legacy from our omnivorous primate heritage. Humans apparently share with most primates a tendency to increase the proportion of dietary animal matter whenever it is economical to do so. We inherited dietary preferences for animal matter, which historically have been limited by economics and a hierarchical society. Under current luxury diet circumstances, no such balance of diet to resource availability prevails and preference betrays best interest.

    * Times have changed, but the calorie content of fat has not. Allman [1994] summarizes the dietary paradox we face rather nicely (p. 204):

          The human body absorbs 95% of the fat we ingest, suggesting that this compact source of calories was extremely hard to come by in ancient times. This legacy of our ancestor's eating has created a psychology of food preference that is celebrated in the local burger palace. Having existed for eons in an environment where only lean meat was available, our ancestors would have found a fast-food hamburger a gustatorial paradise. It is precisely what our ancestors loved about fat--its incredibly rich content of calories--that makes it so bad in modern times, when fat is available in great quantities. This evolutionary legacy in our food psychology is the reason fatty foods cause so much trouble for those of us who who live in the food-rich industrialized West today: Having evolved in an environment where fat was scarce, our modern-day minds have a hard time knowing when to stop.

    * Possible approximation of hunter-gatherer diets, in modern societies. Although the evolutionary hunter-gatherer diet is not feasible for most people at present, it may be possible to approximate it via a diet that includes:

          o Grass-fed buffalo, yak, emu, duck, or other less-domesticated animals (perhaps even pastured beef, assuming you can find it).

          o Wild fish are a possibility as well since in many cases they fairly closely approximate key characteristics of land game (low saturated fat, abundant in EPA/EFAs, appropriate omega-3 to omega-6 ratio, etc.), though fish are not regarded as completely strict evolutionary foods in general, as many of our ancestors lived inland and lacked fishing technology. (The assertion that fish are not completely within the definition of an evolutionary diet is somewhat controversial, however, and subject to some debate.)

          o Non-hybrid vegetables and wild plant foods, as available (using commercial plant foods--but no grains or legumes, when wild is not available). As well, many commercial plant foods, depending on the item in question (low glycemic index, for example, as one criterion), may be close enough to the profile of wild plant foods to include in a paleo-style diet.

          o Insects, as an animal-food source, are also within the evolutionary definition.

The comments above are provided to stimulate discussion and research. The above is not intended as an individual dietary prescription or recommendation.

[bailey228]

Are you guys gunna have a bunch of kids?

I don't know. Although I suppose it's inevitable without birth control, right?

Just because yall aren't using it today doesn't mean you won't change your mind tomorrow, right?

I know your wife wants more kids than she can count on one hand(well, she wrote that, but she could have changed her mind)...so how about you?

Actually I will never take hormonal BC again. It's completely unnatural and it messed up my body completely. Plus it obviously didn't work

Wow, you really enjoy finding out a lot about me, especially concidering I've never met you. Don't you have better things to do with your time? Sure I think it would be great to have a large family. I also think it would be great to only have my one daughter.

[Money Dollars]

Wow, you really enjoy finding out a lot about me, especially concidering I've never met you. Don't you have better things to do with your time?

This FSP stuff a real life soap opera to me...you are part of that. But it's much better than TV.

Don't you have better things to do than post all of your personal information in the internet? 

[Money Dollars]

It is probably the most thorough discussion of the question "Are we vegetarians or omnivors?".

false dichotomy.
You can be both. Vegetarian is a type of diet. Omnivore is a species designation.

A better question would be "Are we herbavoir or omnivors". But I don't think anyone is arguing that.

But you keep putting out crap about "nutrients that we get from meat that we cannot easily get through other methods".."and are likely to get sick if we do not".

What nutrients are you talking about?

[d_goddard]

A better question would be "Are we herbavoir or omnivors". But I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Tracy might; he's the only one with spelling that bad!