Vegans - B12

[livefreeNHgirl]

OK, Tracy, I gotta call you out onto the carpet on this one.

You DON'T believe animals are sentient beings??

Wasn't it you who earlier wrote the following post?

In my vast experience with pets, animals I've been around in nature, etc. Animals do have emotions, and they can let you know how they're feeling. Don't tell me that I'm personifying animals more then you are. In my experience with animals that communicate in said way, the animals express enjoyment. The Multitude of pet cats  and the few dogs that I had growing up enjoyed my companionship as much as I enjoyed theirs.

[/quote]


Now you say this:

I don't believe animals are sentient beings like you do. But that's a debate that's been hammered to death, and I was trying to address your concerns with out needing to deal with it.

The definition of sentient is:

sen?tient

–adjective
1.   having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.    
2.   characterized by sensation and consciousness.

Early on in this whole thread I noticed you also felt the vegan life-style was "self-contradictory".

Contradictory.

Hmmmm....

I think I gotcha on this one, Tracy, I really do...

[tracysaboe]

I guess to me there's a difference between expressing emotion and being self aware. I happen to believe that plants too have a certain level of sensory awareness and and ability to emote. Read the books The secret life of Plants and The secret life of your cells. If I were to be like you and believe that an animal is a moral human being, capible of making morally aware decisions, I would need to believe the same thing about plants. The difference is only in degree, not kind, IMHO. I'm not sure I'm willing to do that just yet.

It's all in the semantics and definitions.

TRacy

[Lex]

Everything you have ever wanted to know about B12:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/all

[livefreeNHgirl]

I guess to me there's a difference between expressing emotion and being self aware. I happen to believe that plants too have a certain level of sensory awareness and and ability to emote. Read the books The secret life of Plants and The secret life of your cells. If I were to be like you and believe that an animal is a moral human being, capible of making morally aware decisions, I would need to believe the same thing about plants. The difference is only in degree, not kind, IMHO. I'm not sure I'm willing to do that just yet.

OK, I just don't even know where to begin with this one.

Dogs (for instance) can feel pain, sorrow, shame, pride, love, loyalty, anger, curiosity, protectiveness and much more. Dogs have been known to rescue humans at their own peril. When a mammal bears offspring she will nurture them, care for them, teach them the ways of the world. Whales and elephants will adopt and care for orphans. Primates and birds can develop tools.

I believe many animals are self-aware. I see my dog sometimes struggling make choices between "good and bad behavior". And when I do reprimand her (gently of course) she shows SHAME. How is that not self-aware?

Yet, you are telling me that HUMANS and only HUMANS are morally "aware" and that since we are the only MORAL beings on the planet WE should be able to kill, mutilate and torture animals without punishment as long as we OWN that animal?

Doesn't that just seem strange and ironic to you? Anyone??

Let me also point out that not all humans are self-aware...those that are extremely mentally retarded or those in a coma for example. Or fetuses for that matter.

So, I am not sure why self-awareness should even be a measurement of whether a being has rights. Who decides that "self-awareness" is the litmus test?

IMHO, the human species is the epitome of arrogance. I just find it so hard to grasp how someone who can purport to love their pets will at the same time dismiss them as property to be disposed of however they choose. 

I might also point out that HUMANS have a lot to learn from animals because they are not STUPID enough to create huge, overbearing GOVERNMENTS. They do not destroy their own environments. They do not commit mass murder. (they kill for defense and survival). Animals truly embody the MORALS of LIVE AND LET LIVE.

In fact, I think they embody the very essence of Libertarianism!! So...perhaps we should be looking to THEM to teach US how to fix this completely f*****d up world we have created.
 

(...climbing down from my high horse now....ahem.)

[dalebert]

What the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode about PETA. They talk about the notion of giving animals rights.

[tracysaboe]

I might also point out that HUMANS have a lot to learn from animals because they are not STUPID enough to create huge, overbearing GOVERNMENTS. They do not destroy their own environments. They do not commit mass murder. (they kill for defense and survival). Animals truly embody the MORALS of LIVE AND LET LIVE.

As you can see, my questions about whether or not you eat plants weren't simply to be contradictory or sarcastic though.

Perhaps both of our ways of thinking on this issue have contradictions.

Tracy

[Lex]

We eat animals to survive. 

[Money Dollars]

What the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode about PETA. They talk about the notion of giving animals rights.

These guys are for entertainment purposes ONLY

I don't think they even covered jews much when they did the circumcision show. How could they not talk about that  ???

http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/mohel.htm

Mohel Rabbi Yosef David Weisburg
The Jerusalem Post Magazine, Nov. 5, 1976, p. 14


The Jerusalem Post Magazine, Nov. 5, 1976, p. 14

    Shabbath 19:2
    They may perform on the Sabbath all things that are needful for circumcision: excision, tearing, sucking [the wound], and putting thereon a bandage and cumin. If this had not been pounded up on the eve of the Sabbath a man may chew it with his teeth and then apply it.

The Mishnah
Translated by Herbert Danby
Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1933. pp. 116-117.



    Shabbat 133B
    II.1.
    A. Suck [out the wound]:
    B. Said R. Pappa, "A Surgeon who didn't suck out the wound - that is a source of danger, and we throw him out."
    C. So what else is new? Obviously, since we are prepared to desecrate the Sabbath on that account, it is certainly dangerous not to do it!
    D. What might you have supposed? That this blood is stored up. So we are informed that it is the result of the wound, and in the status of a bandage and cumin: Just as when one doesn't put on a bandage and cumin, there is danger, so here, too, if one doesn't do it, there is danger.

The Talmud of Babylonia: An American Translation
Translated by Jacob Neusner
Number 275. Volume II.E: Shabbat Chapters 18-24.
Program in Judaic Studies Brown University
Atlanta: Scholars Press. 1993. p. 45.

    [The brackets in the quotes below are in the texts quoted.]

    "There are three stages required for the performance of a ritually correct circumcision in Jewish law: the removal of the foreskin; the tearing of the underlying membraene so as to expose the glans completely; and the sucking away of the blood, m'tsitsah." Roger V. Pavey. The Kindest Cut of All. Bognor Regis, W. Sussex: New Horizon. 1981. pp. 87-88.

    "The method to be adopted is laid down thus: 'One excises the foreskin, [that is] the entire skin covering the glans, so that the corona is laid bare. Afterwards, one tears with the finger-nail the soft membrane underneath the skin, turning it to the sides until the flesh of the glans appears. Thereafter, one sucks the membrane until the blood is extracted from the [more] remote places, so that no danger [to the infant] may ensue; and any circumciser who does not carry out the sucking procedure is to be removed [from his office].' . . . The operation itself, then, consists of three distinct acts: the excision of the prepuce; the laceration of the mucous membrane covering the glans; and the sucking of the blood from the interior of the wound." Immanuel Jakobovits. Jewish Medical Ethics: A Comparative and Historical Study of the Jewish Religious Attitude to Medicine and Its Practice. New York: Bloch Publishing Company. 1959. pp. 193-194.

    "The baby cried, blood flowed on to his penis and - as the rabbi had predicted - Graham [the godfather] did not faint. The rabbi then bent over the baby and sucked the wound. I know this sounds awful, but it is part of the Jewish tradition. It's supposed to help the healing." Jack Shamash. "My Son on the Cutting Edge." Independent (London), no. 3,797 (Thursday, December 17, 1998): p. R8.

    "And what of the practice of sucking the bleeding penis? While condemning the procedure, some physicians contend that it was used to stop bleeding.47 Not only is there little evidence for this theory, but it was also a largely ineffective method. Furthermore, even in antiquity, surgeons had better methods to stop bleeding, such as pressure, instruments, and medication.48 According to Dr. H. Speert (1953), Maimonides 'staunchly supported this procedure [sucking the bleeding penis] as a prophylactic measure against inflammation.'"49 Edward Wallerstein. Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy. New York: Springer Publishing Company. 1980. p. 160.

    "mezizah -- Hebrew term for the third step in the Jewish circumcision ritual, in which the mohel applies his mouth to the freshly circumcised infant's penis and sucks up the first drops of blood. In more recent times this procedure has been carried out via a tube, as infections, venereal disease, and tuberculosis, sometimes resulting in the death of the infant, have occurred due to contamination of the wound. Most Jewish circumcisors today have eliminated this step from the circumcision ritual. Critics have attributed sadistic and homosexual implications to this practice, while defenders claim that this was simply all that was known during ancient times to stop the bleeding." Rosemary Romberg. Circumcision: The Painful Dilemma. South Hadley, Massachusetts: Bergin & Garvey, Publishers, Inc. 1985. p. 395.

    "The traditional practice of metzitzah b'peh, which has its roots in the earliest history of the Jewish people and has survived unchanged to the present time, should be viewed with great respect. It is spoken of very positively in the Jewish literature on circumcision both as an essential part of the ritual and as a health measure which prevents infection and promotes healing." Henry C. Romberg, M.D. Bris Milah: A book about the Jewish ritual of circumcision. Jerusalem/New York: Feldheim Publishers. 1982. pp. 57-58.

That is how I know judaism was corrupted....god would never command a father to do that.

Teller is half jew.....

[Lex]

Oh so you are done joking about becoming a vegan?

I wasn't joking earlier but I have since changed my mind. People are omnivors and need both plants and animals to live a healthy life. You can live a healthy life on only vegetables and on only meat but I think these are exceptions and you are just lucky if you don't develop any serious issues with such an unbalanced diet. Granted most people eat very poor quality meat and vegetables so it is a miracle that they survive as well ;-)

BTW I asked about computers and electricity because if you are using all that crap, you can go ahead and buy some fortified cereal or soy milk,etc..

Well, if you read my original post the whole point was to see if there was a way to provide the missing pieces in a vegan diet at home. My conclusion is that yes you can live on a vegetarian diet without too many problems especially if you grow all of your own food and use healthy manure as fertilizer and don't wash the vegetables before consumption. On the other hand since I believe that humans are omnivors I do not see the purpose in following such a vegan diet since we were ment to eat both flesh and greens.

[Money Dollars]

Would you eat a human that consented to being eaten?

Lex, are you going to give up dairy products?

[Money Dollars]

I'm wondering how you know what we (humans) are ment to do or not do?

According to the first book of Moses(christians, moslems and jews all use this) god created humans as vegans...

Genesis 1:29
http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/genesis/

1:29    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[Money Dollars]

Lex-
...
Also, do you have a religion you follow?

http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=2470.msg38760#msg38760

I am Buddhist.

but that was a whole year ago, so he may have

since changed my mind.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Shurangama/Shurangama.htm

"One Must Cut Off Killing"

Sutra:
?Further, Ananda, if living beings in the six paths of any
mundane world had no thoughts of killing, they would not have
to follow a continual succession of births and deaths."

http://online.sfsu.edu/%7Erone/Buddhism/Shurangama/ps.ss.02.v6.020526.screen.pdf

6p 22 "You should know that these people who eat meat may gain some awareness and may seem to be in samadhi, but they
are all great rakshasas. When their retribution ends, they are bound to sink into the bitter sea of birth and death. They are not
disciples of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle. How can such people
transcend the Triple Realm?
6p 23 "When you teach people of the world to cultivate samadhi, they must also cut off killing. This is the second clear and
decisive instruction on purity given by the Thus Come Ones, the Buddhas of the Past, World Honored Ones.

I am vegan for religious reasons, not health or ethical ones...

[Lex]

I'm wondering how you know what we (humans) are ment to do or not do?

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

I did read your original post..
I don't agree with you, but that's no surprise since I am a vegan..I said you were joking because you turned to mostly meat-eaters for advice on whether or not you should become vegan..

My original post was not a question of whether I should become a vegan or not it was about B12. Again, I don't think you read my original post.

If you have no religious reason to be vegan and put yourself above any life that isn't human, I think you already knew you weren't about to change your diet.

Then you admit that veganism is just a religion?

So, will it be wifey that kills and cooks the animals?

We'll see, we don't have any animals yet.

[Lex]

Would you eat a human that consented to being eaten?

It would be weird but I'm all for trying new things.

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=168

Lex, are you going to give up dairy products?

Probably not.

[Money Dollars]

Then you admit that veganism is just a religion?

Sorry Lex, but for most people it is for ethical reasons, not religion.
Veganism isn't a religion...it's a diet for some, it's a lifestyle for others...but it can be part of a religion...but by itself it is not. I think I am the only vegan I know that says they do it for religious reasons, but veganism isn't my religion. It's just an easy way to describe my diet/lifestyle.

veg?an? /?v?d??n; especially Brit. ?vig?n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vej-uhn; especially Brit. vee-guhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
?noun
a vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet.
[Origin: 1940?45; veg(etari)an]

?Related forms
veg?an?ism, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, ? Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source new!
veg?an (vgn, vjn)  Pronunciation Key  Audio pronunciation of "vegan" [P]
n.

    A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.



[Short for vegetarian.]
vegan?ism n.

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The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source new!

Main Entry: veg?an
Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n; 'vej-&n, -"an
Function: noun
: a strict vegetarian : one that consumes no animal food or dairy products ?veg?an?ism /'vE-g&-"niz-&m, 'vej-&-/ noun
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, ? 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
WordNet - Cite This Source new!

vegan

n : a strict vegetarian; someone who eats no animal or dairy products at all
WordNet ? 2.0, ? 2003 Princeton University

So, do you still claim to be a buddhist?