New Hampshire Underground

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Please log in on the special "login" page, not on any of these normal pages. Thank you, The Procrastinating Management

"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business  (Read 5169 times)

Barterer

  • Mischievous
  • **
  • Karma: 57
  • Posts: 219
  • Resourceful Monkey
    • Shire Hours
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2006, 08:30 PM NHFT »

I'll sign up.  PM me when 7 others will too.  I'm not likely to use this before I move to NH and take on a less conventional job.  But I'd like to help out with the idea now, and establish a "clienthood" for when I need it.  :icon_pirat:  I also think early adopters will be at the top of the list if several cients happen to be in trouble at once..
Logged

tracysaboe

  • Call me Ytsvu.
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 128
  • Posts: 3336
  • Christian Anarchist
    • My Page
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2006, 12:47 AM NHFT »

Unfortunitely, I'm not in New Hampshire, so you'd be hard pressed to help me where I'm at. Certainly if I were in NH, refusing to pay income and property taxes, I would join though. But that means I, currently, can't count as one of your 8. :(

Tracy
Logged

felix.benner

  • Guest
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2006, 05:25 AM NHFT »

I don't count as possible client either (although I probably would join such a company in Germany). But just as advice: It would be more compelling if you'd state exactly what your work would be and how the money would be used, like:

1. You will create ads and sign suggestions within 48 hrs.
2. You will keep yourself informed and post information about the case on a company web site.
3. You will link this information in relevant forums.
4. Money will be used as credit (without intrest) for time in jail if needed.
5. Money will be used as FTL Amp to get priority calls.
etc.

Same situation as always: A lot of people give encuragement but nobody wants to pay  >:D
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2006, 10:36 PM NHFT »

Barterer thanks for stepping forward!  Seven to go.

Also I should clarify: I don't think it's really necessary for The Eight to make their intentions public.  If you tell me only, that's enough.

Caleb wrote:

<< I'm not sure that you have articulated how this is any better than what we already do now, for free, when someone is in trouble with the thugs.>>

The differences I'd envision are, among other things, improvements in the Speed, Size, Focus and Novelty of our defenses.

The most important of the improvements is likely to be Speed. Having a contractual obligation to act within a certain time, and a market incentive to do the same, provides a real urgency on our end and should confront bureaucrats with a much quicker response to their privations.   

When I talk about Size, I'm not just referring to the size of the reaction, though that's important.  I'm also thinking about the fact that this endeavor, to be profitable, would need to expand well beyond the boundaries of our little ideologically bound group.   I'll let you mull the various positive side effects that would have.

The Focus level would increase for obvious reasons.

And when it comes to Novelty, well just look at the first few defenses on the list:

Ads   
Fully Informed Jury activity
PR stunts
Defensive occupation of threatened property
Peaceful "raids" on perpetrator offices
Support for political rivals of perps

We've barely used any of these techniques.   Maybe that's because we lacked a market incentive.   


Logged

tracysaboe

  • Call me Ytsvu.
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 128
  • Posts: 3336
  • Christian Anarchist
    • My Page
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2006, 10:36 AM NHFT »

Quote
Maybe that's because we lacked a market incentive.   

And Money.

Tracy
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2006, 03:59 PM NHFT »


Felix wrote:

<< But just as advice: It would be more compelling if you'd state exactly what your work would be and how the money would be used >>> ,

Working on that now; or rather I should say I already was.  It would have to be part of the contract.   I am about 250 words into it.    I will ingest some of your ideas into it.

<<A lot of people give encuragement but nobody wants to pay  >:D  >>

No that's as it should be, the burden of proof is on me to show that I can deliver something worth a dollar a day. And this will not really generate that much excitement until we start actually doing it, months or years from now.
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2006, 04:06 PM NHFT »

firsty wrote:

<< if i picture a cop arresting someone for drug possession and finding out that that person is covered by this insurance, it's not going to take long for the cops to get really pissed off. this results in: pissed off cops. >>

Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep them "unpissed" and yet still make it hard for them to hurt customers?

Also from firsty:

<<but what about combining it (expressly) with a sort of advocacy group...giving it perhaps some easier inroads in the lobbyist world >>

Do you have any specific ideas about how such an advocacy group would operate, what it should do?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 04:09 PM NHFT by DadaOrwell »
Logged

firsty

  • Guest
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2006, 06:22 PM NHFT »

firsty wrote:

<< if i picture a cop arresting someone for drug possession and finding out that that person is covered by this insurance, it's not going to take long for the cops to get really pissed off. this results in: pissed off cops. >>

Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to keep them "unpissed" and yet still make it hard for them to hurt customers?

Also from firsty:

<<but what about combining it (expressly) with a sort of advocacy group...giving it perhaps some easier inroads in the lobbyist world >>

Do you have any specific ideas about how such an advocacy group would operate, what it should do?

i'm the wrong person to ask about how not to piss off the cops. my experience is that if something is made difficult for the cops, they get angry. to make it less difficult, you'd have to remove their sense that their time arresting people who end up being covered by this insurance is time wasted. that means that the cops dont do any paperwork on the arrest, dont have to show up for hearing(s), dont have to answer questions from meddling "rights" activists.

as far as the lobbyist thing goes - i would suggest that some of the funds from the company (whatever isnt spent on the actual clients) would go towards a group that would part of but not identical to the insurance company itself. in other words, some lobby group designed to advocate for less stringent drug laws, become associated with favorable medical lobby groups, become associated with groups like the ACLU with already wield a good deal of power, etc. become a player in that game.

but how would you keep your client list a secret? in my mind, the easiest way for a moralizing politician to destroy the entire idea would be to simply convince a certain amount of relatively stupid and uninformed voters and fellow politicians that it's the public's best interest to know who these people are who are covered by this "illegal activity" insurance (thats probably what theyd call it). they would demonstrate the law enforcement and judicial time wasted having to deal with people who are trying to advocate illegal activities. the other thing theyd do is simply pass a law (if there isnt one already) that bans any agency, public or private, from implicitly encouraging illegal activities. seems like a pretty simple thing to do, something likely to pass completely under the radar of the media.
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2006, 10:41 AM NHFT »

OK since some of you guys were asking to see some type of contract, here is a rough version of the contractual obligations I envision FI having to meet during the early stages after a claim.  I expect to make a lot of changes, and your feedback will help.

First I do want to make clear a couple of things that address the concerns you guys brought up on this thread:

1) In response to Firsty's "roundup of customers" concern, policyholders could choose to have an anonymous policy and would even have the option of keeping their identity secret from the entire company, at least up until the point where they submit a claim.
2) In response to earthhaven, the current draft covers both use and possession of Marijuana/Cannabis, no matter the quantity
3) With regard to Firsty's suggestion that cops or others might angry and vindictive upon learning about your claim; it's true we can't control their emotions or control every person who calls them on their own initiative.  But *our* entire M.O. is *respectful* Gandhi-style treatment of all perpetrators.  It's hard for people to remain angry at that for very long; I've seen how this works first hand many times.
4) For those who cannot afford the insurance, this is a great opportunity for charity, and also an opportunity for the company to defend people from time to time who are not customers.

Anyway, on to the draft contract summary/timeline:

------

STAGE 1: CLAIM ACCEPTANCE
C-day through C-day +2

Having a claim come in should be a big deal.  We'll refer to the day you make a claim as "C-day."   

Within 48 hours of "C-day," we will assign one Freedom Insurance operative to take charge of your case.  In the early stages of our existence, that person will most likely be me.   We'll call, write or visit alleged government perps, let them know what Freedom Insurance is, what it does.  We'll inform them you've made a claim and notify them that we are attempting to determine whether the claim is covered.   We will ask them what each of the charges against you are, if any, and ask them if they can point to any harm or endangerment connected to the charge.  We'll also ask them if you have a criminal *record* that involves hurting or endangering others.  If you're a customer who filled out the application honestly, their answer to this question will have little effect on your defense.

Within that same time frame we will either
 - Accept your claim fully
 - Accept it provisionally
 - Reject it fully or...
 - Reject it provisionally

Since the clock will be ticking, the most likely response will be provisional.  We'll follow it up as soon as practical with full acceptance or rejection.

Once we accept a claim, we will from that day forward fight for one of two outcomes:

A) Authorities drop all covered charges
B) Authorities come to an agreement with you that you find acceptable enough to go along with

If they have seized properties, our goal will be to see them returned. If they *want* to seize properties, our goal will be to see the seizure never occurs. 

You should understand however, that the most common outcome is likely to be a stalemate, where authorities find it politically difficult to actually enforce their charges/seizures, but keep them hanging over your head.   Getting them to do the right thing is never going to be easy, but we can at least make doing the wrong thing painful or politically impractical for them.


STAGE 2:  YOUR DEFENSE BEGINS
C-day +2 through C-day +4

If your claim is accepted, provisionally or fully, we'll then refer to any prewritten instructions you've given us.  If lines of communication are open we'll first inquire regarding any type of social support you might need.  Social support is not our primary focus, and our ability to deliver it will be spotty.  But we will at least want to know what you're most in need of in this regard so we can put out a call for volunteers or take other limited action. 

We'll then check with you to see if you have any new requests of us, any guidelines you want us to follow in this situation.  You may if you wish simply turn us loose to act on our initiative without a preset agenda.  Sometimes this is more effective.  But if none of your requests or instructions conflict with or supercede it, we will begin following the course of action below.

Within four days of receiving your claim we will complete at least five of the following six action items:

1)  We'll make more contact with your persecutors, letting them know your claim has been accepted and that you will not be standing alone.  We'll respectfully ask them to do the right thing and end whatever persecutions are covered.
2) We'll perform a demonstration at or near perp offices, or at a reasonable location of your choosing.   At this early stage a one-man "microprotest" is the most likely outcome, but we've seen how these can be effective.   
3) We'll draft a letter-to-editor for publication in one of your local papers and send or read it to you.
4) We'll draft a small ad for publication in one of your local papers and send or read it to you.
5) We'll post alerts about your case to at least four of New Hampshire's best pro-liberty web forums and e-mail lists.
6) We'll make an announcement on Free Talk Live about your plight.  FTL is a nationally syndicated show originating from Keene and airing on 15 commercial radio stations.

If we learn of a potential claim but *lack* open lines of communication, things will unfold more sloppily at first, but perhaps more energetically.  We'll focus on getting *to* C-day.

Presumably our communications will be down because you're imprisoned; that does tend to mobilize us.  We'll focus on determining your status, re-establishing communication and questioning your tormenters.  We'll try to find out whether you're being persecuted in a way that would trigger a claim.  We'll look over your prewritten instructions.  We'll take whatever other action seems appropriate based on the situation until we can establish communications and start the normal claim process above.     

STAGE 3:  YOUR DEFENSE INTENSIFIES
C-day +5 through C-day +15

If at this point your claim has not been rejected, nor your persecution ended, we will intensify the conflict as rapidly as practical.  We'll again defer to you regarding your suggestions and preferences.  If none of your instructions conflict with or supercede them, we will fulfill at least 8 or the following 10 action items below within *15* days of receiving your claim:

1) Organize a somewhat larger sign-wielding demonstration in your support, consisting of at least five protesters.  We could hold this any number of places.  One thought would be to do it in front of your business, if you have one and feel it would benefit from the attention.
2) Submit the ad and the LTE we crafted during Stage 2.
3) Prepare a new ad and two new LTEs, and send or read them to you. This could be a radio ad or print ad.
4) Make an announcement about your plight on a second NH radio show.
5) Make a second announcement on Free Talk Live, an update on your situation.
6) Send a representative to perp offices who will attempt to meet in person with your tormenters and ask questions, make the moral case for dropping charges/returning property, etc. 
7) Make sure the perp(s) receive at least ten opposing calls, e-mails or other contacts from at least three different people.
8 ) Widen the internet discussion of your case by posting messages about it on at least four of the state's most active web forums.  Post updates to the forums and mailing lists we contacted during Stage 2.
9) Generate one or more articles/news items in the mainstream press
10) Make contact with one or more of the perps' superiors and express our concern with the perps' actions.  A superior in this case might be an elected official such as a selectman or mayor.

STAGE 4:  SETTLING IN FOR THE SEIGE

(To be continued)

-------

Questions:  What should be the consequences if we fail to deliver the promised number of action items during one of these stages?   Should there be some kind of Domino's Pizza style reward people receive if we don't deliver in time?  What should that reward be? 

My brainstorm would be give them 150 bucks or equivalent in precious metals for any stage we fail, but you may have a better idea.  I doubt we would fail stages very often but it's good to have something concrete we can do to make it good if we drop the ball or circumstances make a stage completion impossible.

The downside of this would be that it could tend to lock us into a regimen rather than loosing our initiative upon the perps.  Hopefully the steps above are flexible enough, and I suspect we just need to trust the customer to know whether it is best to waive protocol and move to an initiative-based defense. 




« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 09:16 AM NHFT by DadaOrwell »
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2006, 05:49 PM NHFT »

2 people have now signed on to be among the "first 8" customers

Six more to go, deadline is October 15.  PM, post here or otherwise contact me if you want to be in this group of early policyholders.
Logged

FTL_Ian

  • Neo-Abolitionist
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1037
  • Posts: 6148
  • Peaceful Evolution
    • Free Keene - Keene's #1 Blog for Pro-Liberty News, Opinion, and Activism!
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2006, 01:20 AM NHFT »


Questions:  What should be the consequences if we fail to deliver the promised number of action items during one of these stages?   Should there be some kind of Domino's Pizza style reward people receive if we don't deliver in time?  What should that reward be? 

6-12 months of free coverage?
Logged

tracysaboe

  • Call me Ytsvu.
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 128
  • Posts: 3336
  • Christian Anarchist
    • My Page
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2006, 01:24 AM NHFT »

Looks good Dada.

6 months of free coverage would be a good option. Many people might not like you guys as all and want a refund, but 6-months free coverage would be much better, and many might be willing to let us keep their money for another 6-months, if they saw any benifit at all for what we were doing. Unfortunitely, this sort of thing wouldn't work for people who actively engage in civil disobedience -- because they'd likely have free coverage forever, and the business would get spread too thin.

In regards to eminent domain cases, I think offering to stand with them in front of the bull dozers or whatever would be a good touch. But, perhaps not practical at this stage.

Tracy
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 01:25 AM NHFT by tracysaboe »
Logged

FTL_Ian

  • Neo-Abolitionist
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1037
  • Posts: 6148
  • Peaceful Evolution
    • Free Keene - Keene's #1 Blog for Pro-Liberty News, Opinion, and Activism!
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2006, 01:33 AM NHFT »

Dave,

I was thinking that FI could be the organizer for resistance as well.  This approach would guarantee more volunteers, plus more publicity for FI as a result of the coverage and attention extra volunteers would generate.  Here's the idea:

You could collect information on risky civil disobedience acts that clients would like to take part in, but are only willing to when others are also ready to do the same.  Say, witholding property taxes, smoking marijuana, driving with no tag, etc.  (You could present clients with a checklist of already thought of ideas as well as a write-in area for new ideas.)

You could enter the information into a database and track each client's preferences in reference to how many others they want to join them in each civil disobedience act (x).  Once x is reached for each client, you could notify the client so they could feel comfortable taking action.

You could help clients with common CD interests meet up, and you can protect those clients who wish to be anonymous.  Clients need not be concerned with who all the willing CD participants are, as you are acting as the intermediary, so there is no doubt the anonymous people exist.

Clients could also agree to volunteer to defend other clients for certain CD, and commit to showing up at FI scheduled events, making calls, etc.

What do you think?
Logged

Dave Ridley

  • This forum calls me an
  • Enemy of the State
  • ******
  • Karma: 1535
  • Posts: 7162
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2006, 09:51 AM NHFT »

I like the free coverage idea Tracy.

My first thought on Ian's "organizer for resistance" idea is that we would indeed be organizers for resistance, but we'd need to focus that resistance like a laser, at the point of enforcement.  Do we want to go out there and expend energy and resources pushing back against bureaucracies or laws that have not yet triggered a claim, and may never, or do we want to focus our resistance on defending an *individual* who has a specific case?

It seems like the latter will generate just as much publicity but will all be focused on the individual with the claim, and their tormenters.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your proposal...maybe if you could outline a hypothetical situation that would help me understand it better.  I'll probably get ideas from it even if I don't like the basic premise. 

Anyway, assuming I have interpreted your idea correctly, the other concern I'd have is this:  Just because someone knows that ten other NH residents are going to drive without a license all year or what not, that doesn't necessarily make that individual any safer driving without a license that year.   Those ten others will be nowhere near when they get pulled over, and their existence won't deter the cop. 

On the other hand, compiling a database of some kind does have advantages, *if* it's anonymous.   I also like the idea of organizing customers a bit, urging them to help out as volunteers, and having a way of contacting them all, quickly by very occasional mass email if they agree to it.   And yes we do want to inspire them to break bad laws, by making sure they know they'll have support if they get hassled for it.  I can also envision acts of civil dis by the company, if they are focused on a customer with a claim, or perhaps on an employee.  That will likely show up in stage four or five of the contract/timeline once I have it complete.

But if we are going to keep the premium low and our defense robust we have to be sure we don't do much of anything off-mission.....the goal is to protect the customer against a limited and well-defined set of threats.  In order to do that well, we may need to do that only.



Logged

Tom Sawyer

  • Riding out the days events.
  • Insider
  • Enemy of the State
  • *****
  • Karma: 2489
  • Posts: 8655
  • Talley Ho!
    • politicalGRAFFITI.com
Re: Outline for a Freedom Insurance business
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2006, 12:37 PM NHFT »

I think this is a very valuable service. :)

My only negative would be that I think the term Insurance should be avoided. Makes an easy target for the regulators to attack.

Perhaps Freedom Protective Service (as an example).

Plus this would allow the Federal Protective Service employees to work for a better company, without even changing the acronym they work for. (Well... this is a stupid reason, but I found it entertaining.)
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up