Anarchists and the Environment

[FrankChodorov]

if government didn't claim it owned the air.

it doesn't...

It does de facto.

but it doesn't de jure.

[Gabo]

Tracy is right, you damage my air and you get a tort.
This is no different than if someone poisoned your water.

[FrankChodorov]

Tracy is right, you damage my air and you get a tort.
This is no different than if someone poisoned your water.

no you have to prove in a court of law that you have been physically harmed and by who...

good luck with that...if it were that easy then air would be able to be privatized.

[PinoX7]

I think if any society were to function on an Anarchist level, the whole population would have to go through a mass re-education program.
That company that poluted the air, does so for profit. But thats the capitalist way of thinking. Im not sure how Anarchists function, but I dont see a Anarchist state, haveing too many major corporations, insted i see mostly local, self sustaning towns, and states.

[FrankChodorov]

That company that poluted the air, does so for profit. But thats the capitalist way of thinking.

capitalism can be defined as privatizing what should be owned in common as an individual equal access opportunity right and socializing the negative externalities.

geo-anarchism (a form of mutualism) is socializing the economic rental value of the commons and privatizing the costs of externalities.

[polyanarch]

People tend to treat stuff they own collectively or communally like crap. That is because it is not REALLY theirs and they KNOW it.  So who cares if it gets F-ed up?

But stuff they own themselves, individually, they tend to care for and VALUE.  if they don't VALUE it then it is nothing to them if it is destroyed/ruined.

Once all land is owned by individuals then it will be valued by the owners and protected against destruction by non-owner Force-Initiators.

Air quality is a problem as it will be hard to privatize the "air."  Pollution already IS a problem in today's statist society.  Saying that it will be a problem in an anarchistic society is hardly a damnation of anarchism as it is a problem that trancends the system and can hardly be blamed on it.

[FrankChodorov]

People tend to treat stuff they own collectively or communally like crap. That is because it is not REALLY theirs and they KNOW it.  So who cares if it gets F-ed up?

But stuff they own themselves, individually, they tend to care for and VALUE.  if they don't VALUE it then it is nothing to them if it is destroyed/ruined.

Once all land is owned by individuals then it will be valued by the owners and protected against destruction by non-owner Force-Initiators.

Air quality is a problem as it will be hard to privatize the "air."  Pollution already IS a problem in today's statist society.  Saying that it will be a problem in an anarchistic society is hardly a damnation of anarchism as it is a problem that trancends the system and can hardly be blamed on it.

you are confusing collective and communal ownership which are joint or group rights with ownership in common which are individual rights.

all the lakes and groundwater in NH are owned in common as an individual equal access opportunity right.

the sole role of the state is to protect the integrity of the common asset and to protect individual equal access rights of individuals from being infringed upon by other individuals.

[polyanarch]

I'm not confusing them -I'm conflating them...

[FrankChodorov]

I'm not confusing them -I'm conflating them...

you are confusing collective and communal - they are both the same...joint or group rights.

you are conflating collective and in common - they are not the same...collective are joint rights and in common are individual rights.

the root of communal is commune not common.

[polyanarch]

I'm not confusing them -I'm conflating them...

you are confusing collective and communal - they are both the same...joint or group rights.

you are conflating collective and in common - they are not the same...collective are joint rights and in common are individual rights.

the root of communal is commune not common.

Po-tat-o, po-tate-o it's all the same.  People like to have their own stuff.  If it is not their OWN stuff they don't, for the most part, consider that they OWN it.

And people don't take care of other people's stuff like they take care of their own stuff.  Call it communal or collective ownership -most people don't consider it "theirs" and therefore don't VALUE it because something that they don't posess has no value to them.

[FrankChodorov]

People like to have their own stuff.  If it is not their OWN stuff they don't, for the most part, consider that they OWN it.

And people don't take care of other people's stuff like they take care of their own stuff

yes - their own stuff via the application of labor to the material world with the help of capital is the definition of wealth.

the land, the water, and the air (commonwealth) pre-exist human labor so we must construct a just set of social rules for assigning title via privilege to avoid conflict...presumably to enhance the common good otherwise what would be the point of privilege?

Call it communal or collective ownership -most people don't consider it "theirs" and therefore don't VALUE it because something that they don't posess has no value to them.

I am not advocating for communal or collective property but if people want to do that in a voluntary system amongst themselves - fine by me...it usually only works in small-scale settings because joint ownership rights require the permission of all the other owners (consensus) prior to taking action to use communal property.

[PinoX7]

People tend to treat stuff they own collectively or communally like crap. That is because it is not REALLY theirs and they KNOW it.  So who cares if it gets F-ed up?

Z

Well thats still a Capitalistic mindset, Its not that You dont own it, Its that Everybody Owns it. Its not that you wouldent care if anything gets fucked up cause its not yours, you would care that nothing gets fucked up cause its everybodys, even yours.

Also, im not a socialist, or an expert, im just giving my views.