So, it's the dead of winter, and the power goes out.

[mvpel]

I think that a Diesel generator is the way to go.  A natural or LP-powered generator sounds like great idea but in a long-term emergency situation availability and ease of refueling these might be questionable.

The natural gas delivery system is powered by natural gas, and the lines are underground, so it's a very rare occasion when natural gas service is disrupted.  It's usually when someone didn't pay attention to the Miss-Dig markings and cut a line, risking a massive fire and explosion.

With LP, folks will have a 500 or 1,000 gallon tank on their property (400 or 800 gallons of propane), with the generator piped in to the system, and that'd be sufficient for a very long run time of the generator.

If one has an oil furnace, a diesel generator would definitely be a good idea.

[polyanarch]

Natural gas is dependant on the natural gas supply, pipelines and infrastructure.  These are all things that could be and would be very susecptable to a natural disaster or terrorist strike.  The same reasons one is preparing to have alternate off-grid electrical power is the reasons why putting yourself in the same situation on an even-less secure and safe grid (natural gas) is just jumping from the fry-pan into the fire.

An LP tank makes a pretty good target for bad-guys who are organized or free-lance.  One bullet-hole and the whole thing is either soon empty or in a worst case -a fireball.  Burying an LP tank to protect it physically is not really an option with a highly explosive gas/liquid like LP that is heavier than air. Many older Fuel-oil tanks are still underground or even an above-ground tank could be surrounded by an open-air emergency catch basin that will keep a holed or damaged tank from  causing an enviornmental disaster and even SAVE the fuel for use still.   The tank can be repaired and the oil pumped back in or transfered to another location easily.  Diesel and fuel oil is easily handled and isn't explosive nor needs to be kept under pressure.  It can be transported in 5-gallon jerry cans or 50-gallon drums without any special equipment or trucks.  A low tech solution would be to bail it out with buckets if it came to that.  LP isn't quite so simple or easy -and you are dependant on the LP gas truck to supply more.

[jaqeboy]

Thanks for the plug, Ron.

A friend in New-Hampshire bought a military surplus diesel generator packaged up like yours, only more rugged, military style. He installed a couple of extra oil tanks in his basement and tapped into those to run the generator off of. That was a really serious installation and would probably be more reliable for long term operation than the consumer-grade units, like the Home Depot jobs.

A friend in Maine just cut the line somewhere into his panel and put a plug on it (old house with pretty low amperage service, or else he had isolated some of the circuits - I forget). When he lost power, he just unplugged  his panel from the line and plugged the panel plug into an extension cord from his little cheapo generator and cranked it up. Pretty amateurish, but it worked for him (and there was no chance of back-feeding into the lines).

Yeah, I am morphing my business over to include energy/survival/sustainability services, but if anyone wants to learn more, they ought to attend the workshops that NHSEA (New Hampshire Sustainable Energy Association) puts on: http://nhsea.org. They just organized a Green Buildings Open House Tour this past Saturday where you could actually visit homes that were off the grid. Good group - I've been a member for a couple of years.

[MaineShark]

I think that a Diesel generator is the way to go.  A natural or LP-powered generator sounds like great idea but in a long-term emergency situation availability and ease of refueling these might be questionable.  Diesel fuel is pretty interchangable and in a pinch one could burn fuel oil (you could have a big tank for your "furnace" that is a couple thousand gallons and nobody will hardly blink at it).  Even veggie oil could be burned if you do your homework in advance and know your options...

Actually, #2 fuel and diesel are so interchangeable, that it wouldn't even have to be "in a pinch."  If I install a diesel generator, I'll pipe it up to a fuel oil tank.  I don't intend to pay road taxes on generator fuel...

Maineshark, as far as wiring boilers is concerned.  I'd do it as long as there is no possibility that there is any asbestos in them.  Asbestos is a bad, bad, bady-bad thing.  I don't want to be anywhere around any of it.  I've got my reasons...

Refractory ceramic is the closest we get to asbestos, and we handle even that with care (and it's all inside the combustion chamber, not outside like asbestos insulation).

Burying an LP tank to protect it physically is not really an option with a highly explosive gas/liquid like LP that is heavier than air.

Actually, we do bury LP tanks on a regular basis.  It's pretty standard for the larger tanks, just because people don't like to look at them.

Many older Fuel-oil tanks are still underground...

Not legally... 

...or even an above-ground tank could be surrounded by an open-air emergency catch basin that will keep a holed or damaged tank from  causing an enviornmental disaster and even SAVE the fuel for use still.   The tank can be repaired and the oil pumped back in or transfered to another location easily.  Diesel and fuel oil is easily handled and isn't explosive nor needs to be kept under pressure.  It can be transported in 5-gallon jerry cans or 50-gallon drums without any special equipment or trucks.  A low tech solution would be to bail it out with buckets if it came to that.  LP isn't quite so simple or easy -and you are dependant on the LP gas truck to supply more.

Actually, while the catch basis are available for retrofit, for new installations I'd just go with a factory-made 110% containment tank.  Steel outer tank with a SMP polymer inner tank, and a leak monitoring system that raises a flag if any oil gets into the interstitial space.

But, all things considered, oil does win out in terms of emergency use.  LP is not easy to substitute for.  With proper equipment, most common oils can be burned.  Even things as heavy as gear oil, heat transfer oil, and used veggie oil can be safely utilized in the right equipment.

I'm really thinking that a multi-fuel heating business is the way to go.  I really enjoy designing systems that seamlessly integrate multiple fuel sources, for flexibility, peace of mind, and even environmental concerns.  Run on LP when you feel like it, then switch to oil if LP becomes a problem.  No oil readily available?  Burn wood.

Man, I love the old Dumont wood/oil boilers.  Reliable, easy to use, and frighteningly efficient (we're talking 70's technology, getting 90% efficiency when burning oil - modern boilers are just catching up to that).

Joe

[polyanarch]

I was at the mexican/spanish grocery mini-mart grocery across the street from my GF's house and was remarking at the AMOUNT of veggie oil on the shelves.  It's not a big grocery, but there must be 2K gal or more of veggie oil.  They had a palate of corn oil in gallon jugs that stood 6' tall in the aisle and then one whole side of the aisle had more oil in gallon and quart containers.  COme to think of it, there was probably 3K-gal of oil in that one tiny store.  If I had a diesel vehicle and gasoline was impossible to get/rationed I could buy enough in that one store across the street in chicago to drive all the way home to NH and still have enough to drive back or burn in the furnace to keep me warm.

There is this place in Wisconsin that makes the outdoor wood heating boilers that look pretty damn nice.  Having a fuel-oil backup would be great for those times when you aren't around for a few days so your house will stay unfrozen because nobody is there to stoke the boiler.

[MaineShark]

I was at the mexican/spanish grocery mini-mart grocery across the street from my GF's house and was remarking at the AMOUNT of veggie oil on the shelves.  It's not a big grocery, but there must be 2K gal or more of veggie oil.  They had a palate of corn oil in gallon jugs that stood 6' tall in the aisle and then one whole side of the aisle had more oil in gallon and quart containers.  COme to think of it, there was probably 3K-gal of oil in that one tiny store.  If I had a diesel vehicle and gasoline was impossible to get/rationed I could buy enough in that one store across the street in chicago to drive all the way home to NH and still have enough to drive back or burn in the furnace to keep me warm.

If fossil oil ever gets too expensive, look for cheap, non-food-grade veggie oil to become popular.

There is this place in Wisconsin that makes the outdoor wood heating boilers that look pretty damn nice.  Having a fuel-oil backup would be great for those times when you aren't around for a few days so your house will stay unfrozen because nobody is there to stoke the boiler.

There is a wide variety if quality in wood boilers.  But yeah, they are slick.  There are combo wood/oil units, but I'd really suggest a separate wood boiler and oil boiler.  A bit more expensive, but the wood boilers (with the exception of the old Dumonts) don't burn oil efficiently.

The most important thing in a wood boiler installation is to have a storage tank.  It means losing a lot of basement space, but a few thousand gallons of water inside a heavily-insulated tank can heat your house for two or three days on a single wood burn, which will make your life easier and reduce your fuel usage.

Joe

[polyanarch]

My next house will have underfloor radiant HW heat with an outdoor boiler attached to the polebarn outside.  The polebarn is going to have a beam down the middle with a crane pully that runs the length of the polebarn (30x60 ish size) right into the boiler's mouth.  The polebarn will also be the shed for some equipment but wood storage will be its primary use.

A large hot super-insulated water tank would exist in the polebarn as well as a smaller one (big as fits) in the home (which is going to be small and earthen-embanked so not much energy will be needed to keep it warm.

[FrankChodorov]

My next house will have underfloor radiant HW heat

if you build a very low energy house and do the heat loss calculations for a radiant floor the expense can't be justify unless you just like warm feet.

[polyanarch]

Once you have underfloor heat not putting it in can't be justified.  I'd rather go without indoor plumbing.

Actually, my GF has it in her condo using the electric method and even THAT saved her money last winter because she could keep the heat down much lower than she could have otherwise stood it (like in previous winters before she put the new tile down) so what she lost in the electric bill she more than made up in saving on the gas bill.

Of course this is a ceramic/marble-tiled floor 100% throughout the entire condo.  No wood or crappy allergin-carpet (yuck).  So YMMV.

[CNHT]

Underfloor heating sucks. A boiler that does gas/oil/wood, with generator backup to me would be best.
Joe is the authority on this....
He can tell you what is best.

But radiant heat is like not having any heat at all....it sucks.

[FrankChodorov]

Once you have underfloor heat not putting it in can't be justified. 

as I said...if you like warm feet that is fine.

but the expense can't be economically justified in a very low energy house after you do the heat loss calculations.

I heated my 3K sqft house with my hot water tank and a heat exchange hooked up to my fresh air system.

cost me $500 for heat and hot water (propane).

[polyanarch]

I guess we are all different.  In my old house in WI I used to have an attached "wood shed" that was actually just a screened-in porch area under my deck that had a sliding-glass door to the outside from my finished basement.  I used to get wood in the morning from it and I'd just slip on a pair of slippers and load my wood basket for both wood burners NAKED and never once felt uncomfortable being in -10F weather for about a minute.

As long as my feet are NOT cold.  But even in the summer time my FEET ARE ALWAYS COLD.  I'd rather be in a 50-degree house with warm feet than in a 70-degree house with cold feet.  Even with heavy socks my feet get cold down there because it is DAMN COLD at the floor and my feet are always cold anyhow.

Like I said in my earlier post.  If given a choice between indoor plumbing and under-floor heat I'd choose the under-floor heat.

YMMV

[MaineShark]

polyanarch is spot-on.

Radiant heating is by far more efficient and more comfortable than any other heating method.

If your feet and head are warm, you'll feel warm.  You can run your air temperature cooler, because your body will be comfortable due to the warm feet.

Even in a low-energy house, radiant will be more efficient.  And it isn't particularly expensive, compared to any other quality heating system.  In the case of modern (condensing) gas-fired boilers, the savings are greater because these gas systems are inherently designed to modulate their firing rate to meet demand, so they become extraordinarily efficient when the demand is for something cool like the 80-100 degree water that radiant needs.

And with a storage tank system, the radiant can still extract useable temperatures for days longer, when the storage tank is far too cool for the 170+ degrees that baseboard needs.

But it does need to be done right.  An improperly-designed radiant system will be no end of trouble.

Frank: There are people in northern Canada with 4000-square-foot houses that heat for that kind of expense, with radiant fired by condensing gas boilers.

Joe

[CNHT]

polyanarch is spot-on.

Radiant heating is by far more efficient and more comfortable than any other heating method.

So Joe what do you think was wrong with the house I was in that was always cold. Not insulated properly? Or have they just improved on this?

[FrankChodorov]

Frank: There are people in northern Canada with 4000-square-foot houses that heat for that kind of expense, with radiant fired by condensing gas boilers.

I repeat - you can't justify the expense in a really, really low energy house.

how can you compare the cost of a small heat exchanger enclosed in a fresh air system (air-to-air heat exchanger which is a given in a super-insulated, low energy house) with making a heat exchanger out of all of your floors in the house?