So, it's the dead of winter, and the power goes out.

[Dreepa]

Where are you getting your product from?  Website?

I am looking at three companies.(2 in NH and 1 in VT)  (When I am on my other computer I will list them and the websites)
Also all the companies will probably be invited to the NHLF in Feb07 in Concord.

[tracysaboe]

Most gas heaters use a pilot light. So even if the electricity goes out, as long as the gas is already on, you'll be fine. Most gas heaters use electricity only to turn on the pilot light.

Tracy

[KBCraig]

Most gas heaters use a pilot light. So even if the electricity goes out, as long as the gas is already on, you'll be fine. Most gas heaters use electricity only to turn on the pilot light.

Tracy

Heaters, yes. But furnaces, boilers, hot water systems, etc., all need electricity to move the heat from the flame to the living space.

Radiant gas heaters are great, and don't use electricity. But they offer minimal convection, and don't heat the air. They're great at keeping people warm, so long as they're in the radiant beam. Gotta have one in every room, though.

Kevin

[cathleeninnh]

I don't know about up here but I have owned many houses with gas heaters and every one of them had a fan that was electric. No electricity, no heat. But, yes, the pilot stayed lit.

Cathleen

[Lloyd Danforth]

I built an apartment above a large garage. We installed a gas (propane) heater in the wall. It had no fan.  The hole in the wall was a 'pipe in pipe' arrangement, one pipe supplying outside air for combustion and the other, exhaust.  I don't think it had a thermostat, just a knob you could turn from low to high.  It had a pilot flame on all the time.

[MaineShark]

Most gas heaters use a pilot light. So even if the electricity goes out, as long as the gas is already on, you'll be fine. Most gas heaters use electricity only to turn on the pilot light.

Modern heating equipment is moving away from standing pilots.  Only the temporary-type heaters really justify a pilot.  Quality equipment is almost always electronic ignition, both for safety and because most any high quality heater now has a fan.

Of course, the actual wattage requirements are small, so some systems have been known to have backup batteries attached.  A large-ish computer UPS is often enough for temporary use.

The semi-decorative gas fireplaces (and "woodstoves") can often be in sizes that throw a huge amount of heat, and are typically pilot ignition.  The "woodstove" styles do well, even without a fan, due to the large surface area to enhance natural convection.  Modern ventfree units are safe, and 100% efficient.  Some are electronic ignition, but battery-operated (since they are for occasional use, rather than primary every-day heating, the batteries last a good while).

Stay tuned for some changes, as well.  Baxi, one of the best manufacturers of gas boilers, has a unit that includes a built-in generator.  Hopefully, the red tape won't be too bad, and it will be approved for import in the not-too-distant future.  Basically, it cogenerates as it heats (sell back to the grid, or offset your power draw, anyway), and stores enough in batteries to re-start itself in the event of a power failure, at which point it will begin generating, and keep your heating system running, despite the lack of external power.

Lloyd: Sounds like one of the old Empire (or similar) wall heaters.  Tall, skinny unit (natural convection without fan), right?

Joe

[MaineShark]

Also, just to note, if you have an oil furnace/boiler, and intend to run it off a generator in the case of an outage, Riello burners use noticeably less power to run than the Beckett/Carlin burners that are more common.  Plus, they are more reliable and more efficient.  If your burner is not old enough to justify replacement, even replacing the old motor with one of the newer PSC motors has a dramatic impact on energy usage.  If you have a generally-reliable system, upgrading to modern "interrupted ignition," microprocessor controls and a modern solid-state ignitor will further reduce energy usage.  Not to mention running quieter (basically, "interrupted ignition" means that the spark is only applied for the first 15 seconds or so, until the flame is established, then the ignitor is powered-down, so it no longer draws energy and makes additional noise) (if your system is not overly reliable, this can be a problem, as the flame may not be self-sustaining, and may need a continuous spark to star running) (ideally, that should be fixed, but sometimes the only repair possible is to replace the system, and that gets costly)

Joe

[mvpel]

In looking over the Baxi webpage at http://www.baxi.co.uk/ - I definitely get a similar impression of their products as I did for the Lennox equipment - very careful attention to the design detail and quality of the product.  The photos are quite interesting - who'd have thought that you could mount a home heating appliance in your kitchen, instead of your basement, and have it look right at home?

Maybe once we make some more headway in paying off the adoption, we'll look into a heating upgrade.  But we've made such massive strides in efficiency with insulation and windows, slashing our overall energy use, it might wind up being hard to justify the expense unless our crummy Janitrol furnace has a big breakdown.

Found this page http://masterplumber.net/Furnace_Questions.htm describing a similar problem to the one we had two years ago, only our flame sensor wasn't merely crusted with carbon, it had withered away to a stump.

[polyanarch]

It's good to have some sort of heating arrangement that does not reley on outside power/connection to keep your home from freezing for extended periods.

A fuel oil furnace will have plenty of fuel but no power to run the "brains" and if there is a forced air system you will probably need power to run the fan motor to push air around unless it is an older unit that uses convection (these old furnaces were like an octopus in the basement with ducts running out and up on an angle and took up a lot of room.

A ups works good for a short period but the power to run the fan (and the older igniters) is a lot for a computer-sized UPS.  A gas-powered generator is a good idea -plus you can use it for a few lights here and there.  It's best to have a built-in system but that is not cheap.  If you  know an electrician he can help you out with a good 12v battery back-up system for lights and other things in the house like the furnace that might not cost as much as you think.  A solar or wind-powered system can be adapted/expanded to do this same thing.  I'd advise anyone who is putting a solar powered battery system in to put in low-voltage emergency lights and wire the home so that there is dedicated circuits for necessary things like your furnace and emergency communications and radios. 

As far as getting the power company to unhook you.  I think that has been pretty well covered. If you REALLY wanted to get unhooked you could just turn off the main breaker to your service and you are unhooked.  Maybe pull off the meter socket (have someone who knows what they are doing here as it's not really "kosher" to do this safely unless you know the drill) Hell, If I wanted an overhead gone I'd just go to the pole and cut the triplex down myself -not that I'd want to, it might come in handy someday.  But it could be shut off at the main pretty darn easy and turned on again if need be.

The real reason, like it was said before, that the power company wants to see your generator set-up is a lot of people installed "handi-man" special generator hookups with no mechanical interlocks to ensure that power doesn't get backfed into the utility lines.  People have sent power back into the lines and through the transformer and heated up "dead lines" with HIGH voltage and seriously injured and even killed linemen working on fixing infrastructure during and after storms.  It's not a joke.  Usually someone "forgets" the procedure or it's a Wife or relative who hooks it up in an emergency and since the system isn't fool-proof they don't know any better and electricity is sent back into the utility grid.  NOT GOOD.

One of these days myself, and some of the other FSP electricians should get together and form a business installing generators, photo-voltaic systems, UPS's and such for survival-minded folks.  The problem is that NH is pretty strict in my opinion compared to what I'm used to in rural WI with regards to licensing and running an off-the-books "handiman" (but knowledgable) electrical service company like this. 

That and the Union (IBEW) is even stronger and tougher out East when it comes to "side work" than it is here out in the sticks. Getting caught "scabbing" isn't that big of deal in WI as long as it is in the area the Union has been driven out by the non-union contractors anyhow.  They figure if brothers are taking work from the non-union then more power to them.  Do it in Madison and start competing against union shops and that is whole nother bag of beans!

[MaineShark]

A ups works good for a short period but the power to run the fan (and the older igniters) is a lot for a computer-sized UPS.

Not long-term, but it will help in a pinch, and it can save you a good amount in repair costs.  There was a windstorms last winter in Maine, and I spent much of the following week replacing electronics on people's heating systems, which were burned-out by the surges.

Maybe pull off the meter socket (have someone who knows what they are doing here as it's not really "kosher" to do this safely unless you know the drill)

Hey, random question: I was helping my parents out one day, and they had been having some surge issues, so they called the power company and the lineman showed up while I was there.  He isolated it to a corroded neutral lug in the meter box, but told me he wasn't allowed to actually clean the corrosion off, since the box belongs to the homeowner.  So he disconnected power at the pole and stood there with his back turned while I took the connection apart, brushed the corrosion off, and re-assembled the connection.  Is that typical, or just nonsense with Central Maine Power?

The real reason, like it was said before, that the power company wants to see your generator set-up is a lot of people installed "handi-man" special generator hookups with no mechanical interlocks to ensure that power doesn't get backfed into the utility lines.  People have sent power back into the lines and through the transformer and heated up "dead lines" with HIGH voltage and seriously injured and even killed linemen working on fixing infrastructure during and after storms.  It's not a joke.  Usually someone "forgets" the procedure or it's a Wife or relative who hooks it up in an emergency and since the system isn't fool-proof they don't know any better and electricity is sent back into the utility grid.  NOT GOOD.

You should see the home-made transfer box that was part of my house.  No way am I going to connect a generator up to that.  Even the home inspector, who one would expect sees all manner of interesting things, was at a loss when looking at that box...

One of these days myself, and some of the other FSP electricians should get together and form a business installing generators, photo-voltaic systems, UPS's and such for survival-minded folks.

You know, that's a pretty good idea.

The problem is that NH is pretty strict in my opinion compared to what I'm used to in rural WI with regards to licensing and running an off-the-books "handiman" (but knowledgable) electrical service company like this.

Yeah, it's a little nutty.  With no licensing of any sort, I can wire, from the thermal switch at the ceiling down, all the complex electronic controls of a modern heating system (eg, let's say eight zones, two boilers, with full microprocessor controls adjusting for outdoor temperature and firing one or both boilers as conditions demand), but heaven forbid I try to install a light socket above because the basement is a little dark and I want to be kind to the guy who will service the thing...  That would just be beyond my skills!

The one I mentioned is an actual installation in a large house in Kennebunk, ME, and required two days to complete and almost 1000 feet of wire in about a hundred feet of conduit, at three different voltages.  Good thing the basement was adequately-lighted, because adding a light would have just been too complex a task to handle.

Want a job wiring boilers? 

Joe

[Lloyd Danforth]

Most gas heaters use a pilot light. So even if the electricity goes out, as long as the gas is already on, you'll be fine. Most gas heaters use electricity only to turn on the pilot light.

Modern heating equipment is moving away from standing pilots.  Only the temporary-type heaters really justify a pilot.  Quality equipment is almost always electronic ignition, both for safety and because most any high quality heater now has a fan.

Of course, the actual wattage requirements are small, so some systems have been known to have backup batteries attached.  A large-ish computer UPS is often enough for temporary use.

The semi-decorative gas fireplaces (and "woodstoves") can often be in sizes that throw a huge amount of heat, and are typically pilot ignition.  The "woodstove" styles do well, even without a fan, due to the large surface area to enhance natural convection.  Modern ventfree units are safe, and 100% efficient.  Some are electronic ignition, but battery-operated (since they are for occasional use, rather than primary every-day heating, the batteries last a good while).

Stay tuned for some changes, as well.  Baxi, one of the best manufacturers of gas boilers, has a unit that includes a built-in generator.  Hopefully, the red tape won't be too bad, and it will be approved for import in the not-too-distant future.  Basically, it cogenerates as it heats (sell back to the grid, or offset your power draw, anyway), and stores enough in batteries to re-start itself in the event of a power failure, at which point it will begin generating, and keep your heating system running, despite the lack of external power.

Lloyd: Sounds like one of the old Empire (or similar) wall heaters.  Tall, skinny unit (natural convection without fan), right?

Joe

Just under 3 feet wide, just under 2 feet tall, made to mount against the wall. A hole for the double walled chimney had to be made in the wall. .  A little window to see and access the pilot.

[Ron Helwig]

It's best to have a built-in system but that is not cheap.

That's what I thought, but then I looked around.

I got a propane powered generator (also works on natural gas) for $3,000 at Home Despot. It came with the transfer switch and a sub-panel of switches.

The electrician set it up so that if the power goes out, it will power:
the furnace (including the A/C!)
the well
the hot water heater
most of the kitchen
the central living space
the office

Basically, I can still run most of the house off of the generator; and it works automatically. The generator is hooked up permanently to the large propane tank.

BTW, I love the idea of a porcupine "self-sufficiency upgrade" service. Jack Shimek has started looking into that stuff, I know.

Also, Joel Winters and his crew might be able to help with house modification type work. They're doing a heck of a job finishing my basement.

[mvpel]

How much was the electrician's work?

[Ron Helwig]

How much was the electrician's work?

Well, he was working on the house already, but IIRC it was about $100. There was also a little bit of work by the plumber to install the gas line from the tank through the house to the generator.

For less than $3500 I have real peace of mind when it comes to utilities.

If I was building a new house, I would certainly include it in the plans from the beginning. It is a small fraction of the cost of the house - hardly worth noting. It also would have been very handy during construction - the build crew had a lot of trouble with their small portable gasoline powered generators.

[polyanarch]

If you get a generator get the water-cooled system.  The cheaper air-cooled ones don't last.  I wouldn't let an outside contractor use the built-in generator unless they were paying for it.  Many of the cheaper systems do not have the long-term service life as the expensive ones and you can "use up" the useful lifespan pretty quick running them like that.  Keep a sharp eye on the maintenance schedule that comes with the unit.  Oil change intervals MUST be followed in accordance with the manufacuturer's specs.

The quality of a generator is basically that of the engine that powers it.  One of the easiest ways to tell how good of an engine it has is by reading the oil change intervals.  A cheap coleman portable has oil change intervals at around 20 hrs of run time.  In an emergency that is more than once a day!  This is because the engine is such junk, and has such poor cylinders and ring seal plus poor/cheap valves that blow-by gets into the oil and pollutes it so fast that the oil just turns to goop with carbon and other goop right from the combustion.

A quality engine (like one put into a car and designed to last (and not just be a disposable piece of junk) will cost more.  I am a fan of Honda Generators.  They are the staple for portable generators in the construction industry because they last while the cheap colemans are dead within the year even if they are only used occasionally.  On many job sites the generator is used every day for 10 hours at least and might get the oil changed every couple of weeks or so with the only maintenance really being filling the gas tank.  Lesser units just die and are replaced by something that has a proven track record.  Look around a construction site and you will mostly see HONDA's.

I think that a Diesel generator is the way to go.  A natural or LP-powered generator sounds like great idea but in a long-term emergency situation availability and ease of refueling these might be questionable.  Diesel fuel is pretty interchangable and in a pinch one could burn fuel oil (you could have a big tank for your "furnace" that is a couple thousand gallons and nobody will hardly blink at it).  Even veggie oil could be burned if you do your homework in advance and know your options...

Maineshark, as far as wiring boilers is concerned.  I'd do it as long as there is no possibility that there is any asbestos in them.  Asbestos is a bad, bad, bady-bad thing.  I don't want to be anywhere around any of it.  I've got my reasons...