Why even pacifists should practice self defense

[KBCraig]

I understand the argument for pacifism on a personal level, where there is a chance to persuade either the attacker, his supporters, or witnesses, and show them that non-aggression is the moral way. This is especially true in personal interactions.

But how is that end served by being a helpless victim confronted by a crazed killer, who has no personal connection to those he is attacking?

Feedback welcome.

At least six dead in Pennsylvania Amish school shooting.

Kevin

[AlanM]

I understand the argument for pacifism on a personal level, where there is a chance to persuade either the attacker, his supporters, or witnesses, and show them that non-aggression is the moral way. This is especially true in personal interactions.

But how is that end served by being a helpless victim confronted by a crazed killer, who has no personal connection to those he is attacking?

Feedback welcome.

At least six dead in Pennsylvania Amish school shooting.

Kevin

Pacifism is a way of life for the Amish. Who are we to judge. It is part of their religious beliefs.
Pacifism and NAP are clearly distinct.

[KBCraig]

Pacifism is a way of life for the Amish. Who are we to judge. It is part of their religious beliefs.
Pacifism and NAP are clearly distinct.

I understand that it's their religious tradition, and I'm not judging. I'm seeking to understand from the pacifists here, if they would truly extend it to all aspects of their life, like this.

That's the difference between pacifism and NAP. I practice NAP, and even when confronted with an aggressor do what I can to de-escalate the situation without violence. But if someone is determined to use violence against me, I will do my utmost to stop him.

I'll pray for his healing and do my best to personally persuade him away from initiating violence, after I've responded.

Martyrdom for one's faith is a noble thing; being a helpless victim of a random crazed killer is not.

Kevin

[Dreepa]

I'll pray for his healing and do my best to personally persuade him away from initiating violence, after I've responded.

Kevin after you respond the person wouldn't need help healing but probably a coffin.

[KBCraig]

Kevin after you respond the person wouldn't need help healing but probably a coffin.

There are many ways to respond with force. Deadly force is the last option, and even then a high percentage of gunshot victims survive. Shooting to slide lock is a poor tactic; for starters, you wind up with an empty gun!

Kevin

[Caleb]

From a Christian pacifist perspective, I would say that I have been ordered by Christ to a) not resist evil  b) turn the other cheek  c) pray for those who persecute me.

Christ says that the Christian will be beaten, flogged, forced into exile, hailed before kings, and murdered for the gospel.

Ironically, never does Christ say that a Christian will flog, imprison, try before a judge, or kill a non-christian.  The Christian is to endure persecution when it comes (1 Cor. 4:12; 1 Pet. 2:21-23) or if possible try to flee (Mark 14:50-52; Matt. 10:23).

We simply are not authorized to use violence in self-defense.  It's a matter of obedience.

[KBCraig]

What does persecution and martyrdom for the Gospel have to do with random violent crime?

[Caleb]

Evil is evil, KB.  Christ never made a distinction.  He never said, "Hey guys, if they are coming after you because you're a Christian, then stand meekly by and take it for my sake ... but if they're coming after you because of some other reason then give it to 'em!"

In other words, we don't try to read the person's heart and mind to figure out why he hates us.  We flee if we can.  If not, we bear the burden for Christ's sake and continue to love our enemy.

Do you have specific instructions from Christ otherwise?

[Caleb]

btw, Kev, karma for the title of your thread. 

and I have some suggestions for new threads we can start:


"why even anarchists should love the government"
"why even vegetarians should eat meat"
"why even atheists should believe in God"

[KBCraig]

In other words, we don't try to read the person's heart and mind to figure out why he hates us.  We flee if we can.

Why flee? If martyrdom for the sake of the Gospel is more noble than defense against a criminal who neither knows nor cares about your Faith, shouldn't you actively seek persecution?

Do you have specific instructions from Christ otherwise?

Sure, Luke 22:36, in His own words: "Then he said to them, 'But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.'"

As in the Ecclesiatical "season for all things", Christ told the disciples that the time for living on charity had passed; they must now carry money and sustain themselves. Likewise, they must also be able to defend themselves.

Kevin

[Caleb]

"at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt. 18:16)


The whole flavor of Scripture and the ante-nicene Church leads towards a completely non-violent interpretation of Christian conduct.

You have presented one verse, a verse which could suggest an alternate explanation.  To counteract the whole witness of NT Scripture, I think you need more testimony ... can you present another scriptural witness or two, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word can be established?  That would help make more certain that your interpretation has not been subjected to faulty human reasoning.

[KBCraig]

So now you're questioning whether the verse says what it plainly says, unless I produce witnesses who agree with me?

???

I understand treating the Pauline epistles as a secondary source, but the four Gospels, including Luke, are primary sources.

You asked if I had any other instructions from Christ regarding self defense. I provided one. You don't like what it says.

Not sure how to help you with that problem, Caleb.

Kevin

[Pat K]

Well I don't have these Biblical problems, I will offer no one violence but when it is offerd to me I plan to the very best of my abillty smite them hip and thy and rock, stick, knive, shoot and bite.

[Pat K]

Also if some nut cake breaks in tonight Caleb and states after he kills you, everyone else is next. Are you just going to let him?

[tracysaboe]

From a Christian pacifist perspective, I would say that I have been ordered by Christ to a) not resist evil  b) turn the other cheek  c) pray for those who persecute me.

Christ says that the Christian will be beaten, flogged, forced into exile, hailed before kings, and murdered for the gospel.

Ironically, never does Christ say that a Christian will flog, imprison, try before a judge, or kill a non-christian.  The Christian is to endure persecution when it comes (1 Cor. 4:12; 1 Pet. 2:21-23) or if possible try to flee (Mark 14:50-52; Matt. 10:23).

We simply are not authorized to use violence in self-defense.  It's a matter of obedience.

Caleb and I have different interpretations of said scriptures.

The Bible also comands me to defend my family. (It's spelled out in the definition of what love is in Ephesians.) PErhaps when confronted with deadly force I personally should have the mentality of taking it. The worst he can do is kill me after all. But how can I love my wife and be a good provider and ad good defender of my wife if I'm dead?

That's a logical disconnect to me.

I've gone rounds with Mike on this topic as well, so I won't go into a lot of detail, but it doesn't seem to me that pacifism is what Jesus taught.

BTW. Turning the other cheek was not an invitation to get smacked again. It was symbolic of the period. Simular to "biting ones thumb off to a person."

TRacy