Why even pacifists should practice self defense

[FTL_Ian]

Who are we to question his commandments?

What are his commandments and how can you prove them as fact?  (Err, I guess that means I'm questioning them, please don't take it personally.  I question as much as possible.)

It's amusing watching Christians clash, you're all so different, but you're all "Christians"!   

[Caleb]

Well, I won't go so far as Mike to say that Jesus' statements make no sense according to human reason.  But they are counterintuitive to me in this sense:  namely, that although we humans are capable of perceiving the benefit and necessity of the specified course of action, when it comes time to actually implement it, it is a hard saying because it requires of us that which is contrary to our short term interests.

I was thinking today that it makes a big difference if you believe that this life is all there is or not. To someone who believes that death is the end all ... then survival would be the most primal necessity, trumping the benefits of non-violence.  What good, after all, is something that fortifies the soul if you don't live on to enjoy the benefit?

Christ, however, did not focus mainly on this life, but rather the life that follows, and he taught us to live so as to grow spiritually.  I believe that violence is so inherently corrupting that using it, even in self-defense or for some other "noble" reason, cannot but destroy whatever spiritual growth we might hope to achieve.  Kind of like a drug that is so addictive that even a single use results in addiction. And human history has borne out just how addictive violence is.

I was thinking about that statement of his "Return your sword to its sheath ... for those who take the sword will perish by the sword."  We all know that Jesus had a penchant for referring to deeper truths within the analogy of earthly things.  Perhaps Jesus didn't mean this literally.  It seems more self-evident to me that a person might be *more likely* to perish by the sword (literally) if he did not take it up.  Perhaps Jesus statement about perishing referred to that life beyond ... that life that he earlier told us "do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul."  Perhaps the best interpretation for this phrase is "those who take the sword destroy their soul with it." 

Then again, maybe I'm all wet. 

I've also been thinking a lot about the concept that we should take the sword, not in self-defense or in aggression, but to the defense of others.  But if an individual has free choice, and if Christ would call him not to defend even himself ... wouldn't it be a violation of that individual's free will for a third party to reach in and deny them their choice? 

Also, if that is the case, and if we are supposed to come to the defense of innocents with the sword, why did this not happen even a single time in Scripture?  Read the book of Acts and you will hear account after account of violence being used against Christians, and not a single case of a Christian coming with the sword to defend his brother against the attacks.  Is this coincidence?

Caleb

[Russell Kanning]

Even in this life .... you can make life better for others by not returning blow for blow. We can stop the cycle.

[David]

Even in this life .... you can make life better for others by not returning blow for blow. We can stop the cycle.

The greatest failure of this countries biggest challenge to gov't is their failure to stop the cycle.      The civil rights protests went from demanding the gov't to stop forcefully segregating, to using the gov't for entitlements.  They were right to demand rights, but wrong to demand entitlements provided by someone else. 

[David]

In response to the earlier theoretical situation...

Let's say I'm in World War 3. Neocons knock on my door and ask if I have any libertarians living with me. I have two choices:
1) Lie and everyone in my house lives; or
2) Tell the truth and everyone in my house dies.

You forgot:
3) Do not answer;
4) Redirect; or
5) Give a non-answer

Therefore, I hope that I would have the courage to choose #2. Everyone would die, but God's will would be done.

I do not accept that the death of innocents is God's will.

You forgot a couple of commandments: "Love thy neighbor (more literally, "fellow man") as thyself." And, "Greater love hath no man, than to lay down his life so that others may live."

You erred by limiting yourself to the either/or of lying or telling the truth. There's also another option: sacrifice yourself to save those within. If you're committed to pacifism, you might not protect them (the JBTs can search freely after you've been dealt with), but at least you won't have given them up with a shrug.

Kevin

You are right, I do not believe it is Gods' will to allow innoscents to die.  I don't have a lot of faith in much of the bible as Gods' will, there is too many contridictions, confusions, ect.
However, I do believe that God, somehow created the universe.  (I think if He exists, than we will come to a brick wall in physics, that brick wall may be God. ) This universe is governed by the laws of God.  When mankind follows these laws, himself and those around him prosper, when mankind chooses not to obey those laws, they fail to prosper. 
The laws?  Think of the invisible hand, supply and demand, a law cannot rightfully contradict another law.  Thou shalt not steal, murder, ect.  The Foundations of Justice. 

I do believe you have a right to defend yourself.  If a neocon wants to kill the mexican I have hiding in my house.  The neocon is initiating force, and I have a moral right to lie to protect others or myself. 

[KBCraig]

Even in this life .... you can make life better for others by not returning blow for blow. We can stop the cycle.

So, to sum up your position: when the rapist invades your home, and you do not resist while he ties you up and has his way with Kat and Kira, you've stopped the cycle how, exactly? You've made life better for... whom, exactly? Kat and Kira? The rapist's future victims? The rapist himself, who is emboldened to find more victims?

I will gladly lay down my life it means my wife and children will survive. But if my death leaves them with no protector, it is in vain.

Evil men are not deterred by passivity. I opt to stop the cycle by stopping them. If their heartrate drops to zero in the process, that is their fault, not mine.

The allusion to the earlier theory that the outcome is the fault of the bad guys, not me, is quite deliberate.

Kevin

[cathleeninnh]

To someone who believes that death is the end all ... then survival would be the most primal necessity, trumping the benefits of non-violence. 

I'm no expert in logic, but that seems an enormous leap.

Cathleen

[Russell Kanning]

That is not even the case amoungst our friends.
You can help people right now ... and that is real and good. It is not just a test for some future time. Happiness or pain is real ... now.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Even in this life .... you can make life better for others by not returning blow for blow. We can stop the cycle.

So, to sum up your position: when the rapist invades your home, and you do not resist while he ties you up and has his way with Kat and Kira, you've stopped the cycle how, exactly? You've made life better for... whom, exactly? Kat and Kira? The rapist's future victims? The rapist himself, who is emboldened to find more victims?

I will gladly lay down my life it means my wife and children will survive. But if my death leaves them with no protector, it is in vain.

Evil men are not deterred by passivity. I opt to stop the cycle by stopping them. If their heartrate drops to zero in the process, that is their fault, not mine.

The allusion to the earlier theory that the outcome is the fault of the bad guys, not me, is quite deliberate.

Kevin

You can spend all of your time imagining how you would act in a situation, but, you just never know exactly how you wil react when a real situation comes up.  Take this from someone who was shielding a dog during a fireworks related situation, recently.

[Russell Kanning]

You can also shoot someone and his buddy can shoot you .... and then they do bad things to your family. Being willing to defend people by force does not guarantee success.

[KBCraig]

Being unwilling guarantees failure.

[tracysaboe]

Regarding the lieing thing.

The Bible only comands us to "not bear false witness against our neighbor."

Numerous liers were blessed by God in the Old Testament. Rahab the Harlete for one. Precisely, because she lied for their neighbor against government police.

Tracy

[Dreepa]

Peter lied, too.

[KBCraig]

John 2:13-15 (King James Version)

13And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;


Or, the New International Version (which is a paraphrase, not a translation):

13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

*****

To be a Christian literally means to be (or strive to be) like Christ. None of us can hope to approach that goal, because we, unlike Jesus, are not perfect. We follow His words, and His actions as portrayed in the Gospels. If we take up a weapon, or vituperatively call a "brood of vipers" for what it is, we are not exceeding the example He set for us.

Yes, we must love. Love is many things, but it's not passive. Snatching a child out of the way of a speeding car is violent; the child may protest this unwanted physical force because he was chasing a ball. And yet, we initiate that force because we love that child. Jesus took a whip to those vendors and their animals, and turned over their tables, because he loved them, and needed to shock them into realizing what they had done to the Temple.

Today's news carried reports from a surviver that that the oldest of the girls killed in Lancaster County stepped forward and told Roberts, "Shoot me first." He obliged. Her younger sister stepped forward and said, "Shoot me next." He obliged. And then he shot the rest of them, and then he shot himself after pleading with his wounded victims, "Pray for me."

Sorry, Chuck. After you're dead, it's too late to pray for you. His eternal status doesn't change from that point on. Heaven or Hell is decided while you're alive, not after you're dead.

If any of the adults had resisted --even sacrificially-- would the outcome have been different? We don't know. But we do know that capitulation achieves nothing.

Kevin

[citizen_142002]

A sword for defense from animals? What animals were there in the place where Christ lived which would necessitate a defense by sword. Maybe jackles, but why use a sword to protect oneself from an animal? A spear would have been cheaper and more effective. I think that KB's passage implies a defense from men. Furthermore, could the "turn the other cheek" passage be construed as symbolic. Afterall, to be struck with the palm and not the back of the hand would have symbolized equality? That's the most logical interpretation of that passage that I've heard.

If one accepts the supremacy and virtue of Christ, aren't one's actions secondary? I mean if you act in  way that you belive Christ would support, and realize otherwise after death, isn't it only important that you lived life according to what you thought were Christ's commands, and that you truely regret any transgression. If KB shot a man in self defense, isn't it more important that he ask Christ's forgiveness, ASSUMING that Christ disapproved of that?

Personally, I do not accept the divinity of the Jew of Nazareth, nor do I believe that there is a singular "God" out there. I guess I will defend myself and leave judgement to any who may be in a position to judge. Don't I have a right to disobey God? If I didn't obedience would be compulsory, not chosen, and that would be devoid of spiritual purpose.

Just a thought. How does a loving compassionate Lord send people who sinned in ignorance or under misinformation to hell for ETERNETY? That seems a little pointless and sadistic to me. Even if it took a million years to reform or purify a soul wouldn't that be better than eternal damnation?

Oh, and hopw did Satin create hell, if he was subserviant to God? Realy didn't the Lord set Lucifer free on man? Is that the kind of being you want to worship?

Caleb, do you include the apochryphal texts in scripture, since they are just as valid as the new Testament? Most of them anyway.