New York Times Confirms Iraqi Nuclear Weapons Program

[Rocketman]

Welcome back, vermass!   

[eques]

Braddog: +1
Vermass: +1

One more comment on the "default setting of humanity."

If the default setting of humanity is indeed hate, war, and violence, why the hell do you want anybody from that group in power over the rest of us???  Good lord!  I tend to think that I'm not hateful, not warlike, and largely non-violent, and I wouldn't want somebody like me to be in power, much less somebody who has a greater tendency toward that "default" litany.

So, no.  If humanity is what you say it is, it is even more imperative to eschew governments.

[Braddogg]

So, no.  If humanity is what you say it is, it is even more imperative to eschew governments.

Bingo.  There is NO argument from human nature that supports government.  If we are angels, we need no rulers.  If we are devils, then devils will be rulers.  If there are many angels and few devils, then the devils will be the ones who seek power.  If there are many devils and few angels, then the devils will outvote the angels.

[mvpel]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the lesser springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

[Braddogg]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the lesser springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

How so?  And how well has that turned out for us?

[error]

It's a complete unmitigated disaster.

[Objectivist]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the lesser springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

How so?  And how well has that turned out for us?

Let's see... the best, freeest, most prosperous nation in the history of the earth, so productive and benevolent that it has never been attacked by a foreign military on its own soil (excepting Ponch Villa and Sept 11, Poncho acting virtually on his own hair-up-his-ass power and Sept 11 being done by "terrorists" because the actual perpetrating country, IRAN, knew that our response would be swift and total destruction, and it thus trained and armed them, but did not explicitly affiliate itself with them).

Unmittigated disaster?!? Can you name a better nation in all of history? Given our screw-ups, can we please have some credit for our succeses? ???

Well, maybe ancient Athens was better, but only for a few generations, not a couple centuries.

Objectivist

[mvpel]

It's a complete unmitigated disaster.

[mvpel]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the weaker springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

How so?

Brad, you have read the Constitution and its ancillary documents such as the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, haven't you?

[Rocketman]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the lesser springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

How so?  And how well has that turned out for us?

Let's see... the best, freeest, most prosperous nation in the history of the earth, so productive and benevolent that it has never been attacked by a foreign military on its own soil (excepting Ponch Villa and Sept 11, Poncho acting virtually on his own hair-up-his-ass power and Sept 11 being done by "terrorists" because the actual perpetrating country, IRAN, knew that our response would be swift and total destruction, and it thus trained and armed them, but did not explicitly affiliate itself with them).

Unmittigated disaster?!? Can you name a better nation in all of history? Given our screw-ups, can we please have some credit for our succeses? ???

Well, maybe ancient Athens was better, but only for a few generations, not a couple centuries.

Objectivist

Seems to me Cicero had to argue with idiots like you who thought Rome would never fall...

[SeanSchade]

It's hard to believe your hypocricy.  Is it right for people to be able to arm themsevles or not?  Why is it right for Americans to arm themselves and not Iraqis?  Because their government may or may not have had weapons, you think it's OK to kill 600,000 civilians...women and children.  You make me sick.

What is right and what is prudent are two totally different things.

It's hypocritical to tout peace and then support ANY countries right to develop nuclear capabilities. There's a million reasons to not support this war, but saying they have just as much right as we do to develop nuclear weapons is flawed thinking.

Have I misunderstood your point of view?

[Rocketman]

What is right and what is prudent are two totally different things.

It's hypocritical to tout peace and then support ANY countries right to develop nuclear capabilities. There's a million reasons to not support this war, but saying they have just as much right as we do to develop nuclear weapons is flawed thinking.

Have I misunderstood your point of view?

No, I think you've got it... Kat and others believe doing what's right is more important than doing what seems prudent. 

[vermass]

Let's see... the best, freeest, most prosperous nation in the history of the earth, so productive and benevolent that it has never been attacked by a foreign military on its own soil (excepting Ponch Villa and Sept 11, Poncho acting virtually on his own hair-up-his-ass power and Sept 11 being done by "terrorists" because the actual perpetrating country, IRAN, knew that our response would be swift and total destruction, and it thus trained and armed them, but did not explicitly affiliate itself with them).

Objectivist

The United States ranks 9th in economic freedom. Socially it is one of the freest countries on earth but certainly not the freest.
Switzerand has the highest per-capita income in the world.
The Japanese attacked Pearl harbor (Hawiia is US soil) and the Aleutian islands.
Historically bordering countries attack one another. Who's gonna attack us? Canada? For Fiscal Year 2006 the US military budget was $441.6 billion. The US military budget is almost 7 times more than the Chinese; the country that has the second largest military budget (and 1,313,973,700 to our 298,444,220 citizens). Canada is the 14th largest military spender, it's budget for 2006: 10.9 billion. Mexico doesn't even make the top 35. Who the hell is going to attack us? The fact that no other country (exept for Japan twice) has waged war on us on our own soil for 200 years has everything to do with geography and fear and nothing to do with our BENEVOLENCE. That's especially true if you're going to say that those that go to war with us do so out of pure unjustified hatred for us. Benevolence would be irrelevant. Just in case you're wondering here's a footnote: Iran (pop= 68,688,433) military budget=4.9 billion.  North Korea (pop=23,113,019) military budget=5.5 billion.

[eques]

Don't forget that little war with Britain in 1812 where the Brits (technically, Canucks) burned the White House.

[Braddogg]

Brad, that's why the United States Constitution was drafted in the way that it was, so that it would not "calculate on the weaker springs of human nature" - namely, the springs of altruism, brotherly love, and goodwill.

How so?

Brad, you have read the Constitution and its ancillary documents such as the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers, haven't you?

You know that I have.  I want YOU to show me what in the Constitution makes sure that the government will bathe the nation in the glorious waters from the springs of the Muses named Altruism, Brotherly Love, and Goodwill.  The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers are nice readings, and give us some insight into the debate surrounding the ratification of the Constitution; however, the Constitution was what was ratified, and it is the Constitution that is supposedly binding.  So where in the Constitution is Altrusim, Brotherly Love, and Goodwill promised?  Article IV Sec. 2 Clause 3?  Art. I Sec. 2 Clause 2?  Art. I Sec. 9 Clause 1?