Islam

[MaineShark]

There are two categories of people under Islam: Muslims and non-muslims. Either you are a Muslim/believer, or you are an unbeliever/pagan/Christian/Jew/etc.

I believe I showed many examples of the Koran stating what should happen to non-muslims. (As for sura 5:9, I seem to have transposed the sura and verse, and 9:5 is already listed. Whoops.)

No, there are three categories: Muslims, Christians and Jews, and "infidels."  A Christian or Jew is not an "infidel" or "unbeliever," because he believes in the same, singluar God that the Muslims believe in.  Islam is a "Newer Testament," intended as a further evolution/revolution or the Judeo-Christian religion.

As for the conflicting directives in the Koran, the last chronological directive takes precedence (the order presented in the Koran isn't in chronological order). The "live peacefully" and "no compulsion" verses mentioned by the 'Religion of Peace' folks were written by Mohammad while he was in/around Medina. The passages I'd listed are newer than the ones promoting peace, and thus are the only ones to be followed by Muslims who truly follow the Koran.

This is a myth promoted by those utterly ignorant of Islam.  Of course, none of the passages you list actually say what you claim, so I don't know why it would even matter...

Joe

[penguins4me]

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken, both about infidels and about the precedence of directives. I've studied the items in question for myself, as well as examining accounts by several individuals who have been around and involved in that culture/religion, to include, but not limited to, Mark Gabriel and a Mr. Shoebat. Therefore...

I am not ignorant about the fundamentals of Islam.

The first-hand accounts I've read agree with my studies. If you're truly interested in this subject, I strongly suggest you also examine the various translations of the Koran as well as the history of Islam as a religion and system of government.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I had a copy of the Koran once.  It was great when I was young enough to, actually, get in all of the positions.........what'd you say?................nevermind!

[ladyattis]

I think all religious beliefs [organized, cult of personality, 'mob' beliefs] are all a threat to human civilization in any form. Now, do I think that any one organization has the right to tell folks that hold these beliefs what to do with their own lives? No, but if they come knocking on mine or my own's doors, they can expect to eat some lead [among other things...Fruitcake anyone  ]. So, just picking on Islam is not necessarily fair in this context, so I'm an equal opportunity anti-religionist.

-- Bridget

[Lloyd Danforth]

True, all Religions belittle man's ability to reason, but, that hardly makes them a threat to human civilization. Wasn't it a bunch of Monks that kept knowledge going during the Dark Ages? 
On the other hand if even a sect of a religion teaches their followers to kill everyone else, they are worth  paying attention to.  Add to this the leaders have the power to keep their followers in the dark, destitute and (some) willing to strap on a bomb.......forever!
While I believe they hate the U.S. due to our presence in the Mid-East and our foreign policey,  they would be going after the U. S. and other Western nations sooner or later, because due to the availability of TV, The Internet and tape and video......everywhere,  they are finding it impossible to keep the wonders of the West from their people, particularly the women.

[MaineShark]

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken, both about infidels and about the precedence of directives. I've studied the items in question for myself, as well as examining accounts by several individuals who have been around and involved in that culture/religion, to include, but not limited to, Mark Gabriel and a Mr. Shoebat. Therefore...

I am not ignorant about the fundamentals of Islam.

The first-hand accounts I've read agree with my studies. If you're truly interested in this subject, I strongly suggest you also examine the various translations of the Koran as well as the history of Islam as a religion and system of government.

Yeah, that must be it.  Every Muslim I know is just too stupid to realize that their religion demands that they kill all non-Muslims.  Ye gods, am I lucky that they are so stupid, or else I'd already be dead!  Or spending way too much money on ammunition, anyway...

Those self-detonating nuts over in the Middle East who aren't even allowed to read the Koran are surely the experts, and the peaceful Muslims living here in the US who've read the Koran are clearly ignorant of its content and meaning.

What luck that the approximately 2 million Muslims in the US are so ignorant of their hidden need to kill all non-Muslims!

Joe

[penguins4me]

Yeah, that must be it.  Every Muslim I know is just too stupid to realize that their religion demands that they kill all non-Muslims.  Ye gods, am I lucky that they are so stupid, or else I'd already be dead!

Please review posts 25 and 27 - and do watch out for SUVs. Keep in mind these few events are just the news items which were so high-profile that the MSM had to run stories on them.

Those self-detonating nuts over in the Middle East who aren't even allowed to read the Koran are surely the experts, and the peaceful Muslims living here in the US who've read the Koran are clearly ignorant of its content and meaning.

Just who do you think is teaching those "self-detonating nuts"? They're not isolated to the Middle East, either, but the MSM just doesn't like to show the hate-filled demonstrations in the UK and the US where the call to outright violence is screamed in the street: "behead the infidels" and the like. Why aren't they enlightened, living in a "first world" country and presumably having read the Koran? Again, some Muslims aren't just limiting themselves to screaming about killing non-muslims in the streets, either - see post #25.

What luck that the approximately 2 million Muslims in the US are so ignorant of their hidden need to kill all non-Muslims!

"Jack" muslims, akin to the Christian-on-Sundays-only Christians, aren't following the fundamentals of their chosen book.

You seem to have your mind already made up - you're not presenting logical arguments, just pointing out things I've already alluded to (most often by my referral to fundamentalist muslims, rather than the two million "Jack" muslims you've referred to in the USA). Islam is a dangerous religion which mandates global conquest, death to non-muslims, and horrible oppression against women. It is not the lovey-dovey "religion of peace" that the MSM desperately wants it to be.

-edit
speeling

[MaineShark]

Yeah, that must be it.  Every Muslim I know is just too stupid to realize that their religion demands that they kill all non-Muslims.  Ye gods, am I lucky that they are so stupid, or else I'd already be dead!

please review posts 25 and 27 - and do watch out for SUVs. Keep in mind these few events are just the news items which were so high-profile that the MSM had to run stories on them.

Yeah, we have two fanatics and one schizophrenic.  When a Muslim schizophrenic kills someone, it's because he's a Muslim, but when a non-Muslim schizophrenic kills someone, it's just because he's schizophrenic?

By all accounts I've read, the others you mentioned were not devout Muslims or experts on the Koran.

Those self-detonating nuts over in the Middle East who aren't even allowed to read the Koran are surely the experts, and the peaceful Muslims living here in the US who've read the Koran are clearly ignorant of its content and meaning.

Just who do you think is teaching those "self-detonating nuts"? They're not isolated to the Middle East, either, but the MSM just doesn't like to show the hate-filled demonstrations in the UK and the US where the call to outright violence is screamed in the street: "behead the infidels" and the like. Why aren't they enlightened, living in a "first world" country and presumably having read the Koran? Again, some Muslims aren't just limiting themselves to screaming about killing non-muslims in the streets, either - see post #25.

Yup, the media just hates to show demonstrations.  They're totally against sensationalism!

As I said, the nuts like that generally have not read the Koran.  They latch onto some fanatic who claims that it says XYZ, and don't ever bother to check it out for themselves.  Similar to most Christian fundamentalists.

I'd bet more Christians have murdered blacks and gays in the US than Muslims have murdered non-Muslims.

What luck that the approximately 2 million Muslims in the US are so ignorant of their hidden need to kill all non-Muslims!

"Jack" muslims, akin to the Christian-on-Sundays-only Christians, aren't following the fundamentals of their chosen book.

You seem to have your mind already made up - you're not presenting logical arguments, just pointing out things I've already alluded to (most often by my referral to fundamentalist muslims, rather than the two million "Jack" muslims you've referred to in the USA). Islam is a dangerous religion which mandates global conquest, death to non-muslims, and horrible oppression against women. It is not the lovey-dovey "religion of peace" that the MSM desperately wants it to be.

You sound like one of those anti-gun nuts: "the statistics say crime rates are high, so we need to ban guns, except for the places where there are lots of guns and low crime: those are just statistics and don't apply to the real world."

Yup, all the peaceful Muslims in the US are just the exception.  Even though the out-number the violent nuts.

I guess peaceful Christians are the exception, and the guys who go out and attack gays are really doing God's work, eh?

Joe

[penguins4me]

Part 1

I can tell from your emotional response that no one is likely to change your mind, Joe. Still, let me see how many examples I can show to emphesize the point you continually skip over, that the very basics tenants of Islam advocate global conquest, death to non-muslims, and an oppresive system of government - and that not all muslims are fundamentalists, they do not follow true Islam.

Violent attacks/events motivated by Islam/muslims against Americans/the USA only

June 2, 1967: Baader-Meinhof, aka the Red Army Faction, was formed in reponse to muslim attacks (by the Iranian SAVAK secret police in conjunction with West Berlin police) on protests against the visiting Iranian Shah.

March 2, 1972:  U.S. Ambassador to Sudan Cleo A. Noel and other diplomats were assassinated at the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum by members of the Black September organization.

November 4, 1979: Iranians seize the US Embassy in Tehran, taking sixty-six American diplomats hostage, releasing them on January 20, 1981.

April 18, 1983: Sixty three people, including the CIA's Middle East Director, are killed and 120 injured in a 400 lb. suicide truck bomb attack on the US Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Responsibility is claimed by Islamic Jihad.

October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck bombs on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000 lb bomb destroys a US Marine Corps base killing two hundred and forty one Americans; another fifty eight Frenchmen are killed when a 400 lb device destroys one of their bases. Islamic Jihad claims responsibility.

December 12, 1983: US Embassy in Kuwait targeted by Iraqi Shias who attempted to destroy the building with a truck bomb. The attack was foiled by guards, yet the device killed five people when exploded in the Embassy fore-court.

March 16, 1984: CIA station chief in Beirut, Lebanon, William Buckley, was kidnapped, tortured, and killed by the Iranian backed Islamic Jihad.

September 20, 1984: Suicide bomb attack on US Embassy in East Beirut kills twenty three people and injures twenty one others. The US and British ambassadors were slightly injured in the explosion which was attributed to the Iranian backed Hezbollah group.

March 16, 1985: US journalist Terry Anderson is kidnapped in Beirut, Lebanon, by Iranian backed Islamic radicals. He was released in December 1991.

June 9, 1985: Islamic terrorists kidnapped US academic Thomas Sutherland at the American University, Beirut, Lebanon, and held him until November 18, 1991.

June 14, 1985: A Trans World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah members and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.

September 12, 1985: Joseph Cicippio, a US academic at the American University in Beirut, was seized in Beirut by Iranian backed Islamic terrorists. He was released on December 1, 1991.

October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front members seized an Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages' freedom.

October 21, 1985: American businessman Edward Tracy was kidnapped in Lebanon by Islamic terrorists and held for almost five years until August 11, 1991.

March 30, 1986: A Palestinian terrorist group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens Airport, killing four U.S. citizens.

April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed, and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany.

January 24, 1987: American citizens Jesse Turner and Alann Steen were seized in Beirut by Islamic terrorists. Turner was held until October 22, 1991 and Steen is released on 3 December 3, 1991.

February 17, 1988: US Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgens was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian backed Hezbollah while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation in southern Lebanon.

April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.

February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York, USA, was attacked by a massive bomb planted by Islamic terrorists.

April 14, 1993: Iraqi intelligence service attempts to assassinate former US President, George Bush, during a visit to Kuwait.

July 4, 1995: Six foreigners in India, including two U.S. citizens, were taken hostage by Al-Faran, a Kashmiri separatist group. One non-U.S. hostage was later found beheaded.

August 21, 1995: Hamas claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb in Jerusalem that killed six and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.

June 25, 1996: Islamic terrorists opposed to the western military presence in the Gulf region, explode a truck bomb next to a USAF housing area at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 385 injuring more.

February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

October 30, 1997: Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. They released the hostage on November 27.

November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.

August 7, 1998: US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar-es-Salem, Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive bomb attacks. US intelligence blames Islamic groups linked to Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden.

December 28, 1998: Yemini militants kidnap a group of western tourists, including 12 Britons, 2 Americans, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.

August 12, 2000: In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage. The Americans escaped on August 12.

October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Ladin were suspected.

December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front is allegedly responsible.

September 11, 2001: Need I say more?

This list only contains events which involve Americans since 1967 through 2001. A much more comprehensive list with more information can be found at theprophetofdoom.net.

Okay, so why do muslims do these things? Well, because the Koran tells them to. Jihad/struggles/fighting are advocated and mandated in the Koran... get your reading glasses, because part 2 has one hundred and eleven verses preaching the same (ripped from freerepublic.com because my fingers are already sore enough)...

-edit
fixed typo

[penguins4me]

Part 2

So, why do fundamentalist/radical/true followers of Islam commit all these horrible, terrifying crimes? Because the Koran demands they do so. Here's a list detailing one hundred and eleven excerpts, due to posting limits here, of passages from the Koran dealing with jihad (original text and full verse texts can be found at freerepublic.com):

The Koran?s 111 Jihad Passages:

Translation used:  M. H. Shakir, published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., 1983, unless otherwise indicated.

      002:178-179: [2.178] ?retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain? [2.179] ?there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

      002:190-191: [2.190] ?fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you?[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

      002:193: ?fight with them?

      002:216-218: [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you?[2.217]?fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter?persecution is graver than slaughter? [2.218]?strove hard in the way of Allah

      002:244: ?fight in the way of Allah

      003:121-125: [3.121]?to lodge the believers in encampments for war?[3.123]?Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr?[3.124]?[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels.

      003:140: If a wound has afflicted you (at [the Battle of] Uhud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you?

      003:155-156: [3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met?[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain?

      003:165-167: [3.165]?you had certainly afflicted (the unbelievers) with twice as much [with Jihad]?[3.166]?when the two armies met ([the Battle of] Uhud)?[3.167]?Come, fight in Allah's way, or defend yourselves?If we knew fighting, we would certainly have followed you?

      003:169: ?reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [meaning they are enjoying their 72 virgins in heaven];

      003:173: ?Surely men have gathered against you [in battle]?

      003:195: ?who fought and were slain?I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.

      004:071-072: [4.71] ?go forth in detachments or go forth in a body [to war]. [4.72] ?hang back [from Jihad] ?not present with them [in Jihad].

      004:074-077: [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75]?fight in the way of Allah? [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan?[4.77] ?when fighting is prescribed for them?Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us? ?

      004:084: Fight then in Allah's way?rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve?

      004:089:?if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them?

      004:091?seize them and kill them wherever you find them?

      004:094-095: [4.94]?when you go to war in Allah's way? [4.95] ?those who strive hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal?Allah shall grant to the strivers [i.e., Jihadist] above the holders back a mighty reward:

      004:100: ?whoever flies in Allah's way [forsakes his home to fight in Jihad], he will find in the earth many a place of refuge and abundant resources, and whoever goes forth from his house flying to Allah and His Apostle, and then death overtakes him [in Jihad], his reward is indeed with Allah?

      004:102: ?let them take their arms?let them take their precautions and their arms?there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms?

      004:104: ?be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy?

      005:033: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land?

      005:035: ?strive hard [at Jihad] in His way that you may be successful.

      005:082: ?you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare ? with ?whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out? (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]?

      008:005: ?though a party of the believers were surely averse;

      008:007: ?Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-

      008:009: ?I will assist you [in Jihad] with a thousand of the angels following one another [see 008:012].

      008:012: ?make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

      008:015-017: [8.15] ?when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ?for the sake of fighting? [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad] ?

      008:039:?fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah?

      008:042: ?Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, that he who would perish might perish by clear proof [all bring success to Jihad against all the odds] ?

      008:045: ? when you meet a party [in battle], then be firm?

      008:059-060: [8.59] ?let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. [8.60] ?prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah?s way [for Jihad] ?

      008:065: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam].

      008:067: It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land?

      008:069: Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war?

      008:071-072: [8.71]?He gave (you) mastery over them?[8.72] ?struggled hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls [in Jihad], and those who gave shelter and helped [harbored terrorists]-- these are guardians of each other; ?and if they seek aid from you in the matter of religion [Jihad against people without a treaty?see next phrase], aid is incumbent on you except against a people between whom and you there is a treaty?

      008:074-075: [8.74] (as for) those who believed and fled and struggled hard in Allah?s way [Jihad], and those who gave shelter and helped [harbored terrorists], these are the believers truly; they shall have forgiveness and honorable provision. [8.75] ? (as for) those who believed afterwards and fled and struggled hard [Jihad] along with you, they are of you; and the possessors of relationships are nearer to each other in the ordinance of Allah [terrorists have a close relationship with those who harbor them]?

      009:005:?slay the idolaters wherever you find them?take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush?

      009:012-014: [9.12] ?fight the leaders of unbelief?[9.13] What! will you not fight a people?[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

      009:016: ?those of you who have struggled hard [Jihad] ?

      009:019-020: [9.19] ?strives hard in Allah's way? ?[9.20] ?strove hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their souls?

      009:024-026: [9.24] ?striving in His way [Jihad]:, then wait till Allah brings about His command [to go on Jihad]: ? [9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of [the Battle of] Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, ? [9.26] ?chastised those who disbelieved [Muhammad gives credit to angels and Allah for the actions of Jihadists]?

      009:029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah?nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

      009:036: ?fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together?

      009:038-039: [9.38] ?Go forth in Allah's way [to Jihad] ?[9.38] If you do not go forth [to go on Jihad], He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you [to go on Jihad]?

      009:041: Go forth lightly [lightly armed] and heavy [heavily armed], and strive hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your persons?

      009:044: ?striving hard with their property and their persons [Jihad] ?

      009:052: ?Allah will afflict you with punishment from Himself or by our hands?

      009:073: ?strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them?

      009:081:?they were averse from striving in Allah's way [Jihad] with their property and their persons, and said: Do not go forth [to Jihad] in the heat?

      009:083: ? shall you fight an enemy with me [in Jihad] ?

      009:086: ?strive hard [in Jihad] along with His Apostle?

      009:088: ?strive hard [in Jihad] with their property and their persons?

      009:092:  YUSUFALI: Nor (is there blame) on those who came to thee to be provided with mounts [saddles on which to go to war], and when thou said, "I can find no mounts for you," they turned back, their eyes streaming with tears of grief that they had no resources wherewith to provide the expenses [to go on Jihad].

      009:111: ?they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain?

      009:120: YUSUFALI: ?whether they suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of Allah [while on a march to Jihad], or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers [invade their territory], or received any injury whatever from an enemy [during a Jihad battle] ?

      009:122-123: [9.122] PICKTHAL: ?the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth? [9.123] ?fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness?

      016:110: YUSUFALI: ?who thereafter strive and fight for the faith and patiently persevere?

      022:039: Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made?

      022:078: ?strive hard [in Jihad] in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him?

      029:006: ?strives hard [in Jihad], he strives only for his own soul?

      029:069: ? (as for) those who strive hard [in Jihad] for Us?

      033:015: PICKTHAL: ?they had already sworn unto Allah that they would not turn their backs (to the foe) [in Jihad battle] ?

      033:018: ?they come not to the fight [Jihad] but a little,

      033:020: ?they would not fight save a little [in Jihad].

      033:025-026: [33.25] ?Allah sufficed the believers in fighting? [33.26] ?some [Jews] you killed and you took captive another part.

      047:020: [47.20] ?fighting [allusion to Jihad] is mentioned therein ?

      048:016: ?You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit?

      048:022:?if those who disbelieve fight with you, they would certainly turn (their) backs?

      059:002: ?the hands of the believers [i. e. Muslims demolished Jewish homes] ?

      059:005-008: [59.5] Whatever palm-tree you cut down or leave standing upon its roots [during a Jihad siege] ?you did not press forward against it any horse or a riding camel but Allah gives authority to His apostles against whom He pleases? [59.7] Whatever Allah has restored to His Apostle from the people of the towns [booty] ? [59.8] (It is) for ?assisting Allah and His Apostle [booty] ?

      059:014: They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls?

      060:009: Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion [i.e., no fraternizing with the enemy] ?

      061:004: ?Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.

      063:004: ?they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [This verse speaks of internecine Jihad against Muslims deemed infidels or ?hypocrites.?]

      064:014: ?surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them [collaborators with the enemy, especially if the women were once war spoils] ?

      066:009: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them?

      073:020: ?others who fight in Allah's way?

Do these passages exhort one to be peaceful and tolerate others? Joe, you'd expressed the belief that the violent acts I'd mentioned previously were not committed by true muslims, followers of the basic fundamentals of Islam. I submit to you the opposite idea: the "terrorists" are, truly, the most devout muslims.

-edit
Further reading on that last topic: Time magazine interviews a jihadist by way of jihadwatch.org.

[penguins4me]

Part 3, bias in the mainstream media in support of Islam.

If one gets all his/her information about Islam from the MSM, there's a term which may apply: garbage in, garbage out. The MSM loves to rally to the support of Islam, but it has recently been discovered that much/most coverage is heavily biased, if not downright fraudulent. Since the main resource I was going to use to reference many such instances is down (snappedshot.com), I'll use some of littlegreenfootballs.com's postings.

The infamous 'Israel blows up an ambulance with a missle' fraud
Staging and orchestrating "photojournalism" shoots
Another faked Israeli airstrike
Hilarious attempt at exaggerating effects of Israeli strikes in Lebanon duing the last 'conflict'
WaPo accused of (badly) altering image to smooth over Islamic gaffe of a missing headscarf
Photos of one event used as photos for completely different events

Why all the heavily biased reporting? LGF was sent an article which might help shed some light on the matter, and sounds like a perfectly logical reason, albeit still not a good one folks who claim to be journalists.

While I don't have a good list handy of Islamic demonstrations in the USA (though there have been several as of late), here are some easy-to-find ones from the UK:
Tolerant, peaceful protesters upset over the Danish cartoons. "Slay those who insult Islam", indeed.
More signs and placards from the above protest at snopes.com
Pope must die for quoting a medieval ruler who stated that Islam is a violent religion. Way to prove the point, I suppose?

If any of these items took you by suprise, perhaps you should consider the source from which you get your news and information.

[MaineShark]

Blah, blah, blah.

Any idiot can list crimes committed by members of any religion, who claim that their religion supports them.  Atheists still hold the trophy on that, with Christians coming in a reasonably-close second.

Any idiot can take passages out of any text and make them say anything.  That's why honest people only quote in full.

Any idiot can claim that his opponents get their information from biased sources.  Here's a hint: few, if any, people on this forum bother with the MSM at all.  I, for example, don't even have cable or broadcast television - all my news comes from as-close-to-direct sources as I can find.

You've yet to prove anything other than the glaring fact that you, yourself, are a bigot.  You won't find much support for bigotry in this neck of the woods.  We treat bigots with utter contempt.

Joe

[penguins4me]

Futile, but... this IS the "endless debate" forum...

Any idiot can take passages out of any text and make them say anything.  That's why honest people only quote in full.

Here's a list detailing one hundred and eleven excerpts, due to posting limits here, of passages from the Koran dealing with jihad (original text and full verse texts can be found at freerepublic.com):

Any idiot can list crimes committed by members of any religion, who claim that their religion supports them.  Atheists still hold the trophy on that, with Christians coming in a reasonably-close second.

The *amount* of crimes listed is the problem. There is a clear pattern of constant violence originating from a single source, perhaps one might care to examine that single source more closely for the reasons why (which I posted earlier, and you didn't bother to read).

all my news comes from as-close-to-direct sources as I can find.

Odd, because your (unreferenced, biased, emotional) "arguments" are exactly the ones being spouted constantly by the MSM. Regardless, what I said remains true - check your sources.

You've yet to prove anything other than the glaring fact that you, yourself, are a bigot. [...] we treat bigots with utter contempt.

Name-calling and appeal to (group) authority. Well, when you can't argue with a clear, verifiable pattern, why not resort to such? :P

[MaineShark]

Sorry it?s taken so long to respond; I was busy being murdered by Muslims.  They killed me three times, yesterday alone.  I got better, though.

Any idiot can take passages out of any text and make them say anything.  That's why honest people only quote in full.

Here's a list detailing one hundred and eleven excerpts, due to posting limits here, of passages from the Koran dealing with jihad (original text and full verse texts can be found at freerepublic.com):

What?s your point?  That you can claim you are taking things out of context for convenience, rather than obfuscation?  Anyone can claim that.  Doesn?t make it true.

Any idiot can list crimes committed by members of any religion, who claim that their religion supports them.  Atheists still hold the trophy on that, with Christians coming in a reasonably-close second.

The *amount* of crimes listed is the problem. There is a clear pattern of constant violence originating from a single source, perhaps one might care to examine that single source more closely for the reasons why (which I posted earlier, and you didn't bother to read).

Uh, that?s what I said.  How many murders-in-the-name-of-religion have Christians carried out, and how many have Muslims?  I can think of an easy 12 million by Christians, in the span of only a few years, not too long ago.  Or does such wholesale slaughter count as only a single act, in your world?

How many did Stalin and the other communists murder?

all my news comes from as-close-to-direct sources as I can find.

Odd, because your (unreferenced, biased, emotional) "arguments" are exactly the ones being spouted constantly by the MSM. Regardless, what I said remains true - check your sources.

Yeah, that?s it.  The MSM is promoting tolerance.  If it wasn?t so dangerous, it would be laughable.

I?ll suggest you look up the term ?connotation index,? and apply the concept.  It?s not what you say, it?s how you say it.

You've yet to prove anything other than the glaring fact that you, yourself, are a bigot. [...] we treat bigots with utter contempt.

Name-calling and appeal to (group) authority. Well, when you can't argue with a clear, verifiable pattern, why not resort to such?

Calling you a ?bigot? is not name-calling.  It is applying a label.  Name-calling typically refers to applying labels to obscure things, whereas accurate label-application is done to simplify a complex subject.

You are a bigot.

And, if your English comprehension is up to the task, re-read the referenced passage.  There is no appeal to authority in it; simply a comment that you won?t find support for your bigoted opinions here.

Joe

[KBCraig]

How many murders-in-the-name-of-religion have Christians carried out, and how many have Muslims?  I can think of an easy 12 million by Christians, in the span of only a few years, not too long ago.

And what murders would those have been?