The American Liberty Dollar

[Pat K]

The only "value" anything has is what another person is willing to trade for it.


I have traded FRN's in about about 40 states and 7 countries with out any problem. In fact folks in other countries were thrilled to get dollars.


Now if your gonna argue and talk about money colapses fine, but in those situations, I think bullets, booze and cigerettes will be worth more than liberty dollars.

[FTL_Ian]

Now if your gonna argue and talk about money colapses fine, but in those situations, I think bullets, booze and cigerettes will be worth more than liberty dollars.

Only time will tell, I suppose.  Though those items tend to be valuable when easier to exchange items like silver, gold, and notes are scarce.  (Like Jail.  Yes, I know there are FRNs in jail, but certainly not in copious supply.)

[Atanamis]

There's no dishonesty involved.  Silver has real value, FRNs do not.  $1000 in FRNs isn't worth what a $10 Silver Liberty is, in terms of backing.

As Pat implied, there is nothing inherently "valuable" about silver. Backing a currency with a precious metal prevents the backer from simply printing more money, which is a good thing, but it still does not really give the currency any true inherent value.

http://www.libertydollar.org/html/profit.asp

The $1 Silver Certificate is not only our most popular item; it also loses money. We exchange it for $0.90, and it costs us $1.09 to produce.

http://www.libertydollar.org/html/spendit.asp

1. Please don't attempt to educate people about money when using Liberty Dollars.

2. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be SPENT!
....
5. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TEN DOLLARS. If you are asked anything, just keep your answers short. Remember to KISS - Keep it Short and Simple.

6. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver, 10 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

So they are issuing a currency redeemable for less than a US dollar's worth of silver, that they distribute for $0.90, and then instructing people to act like it is worth $1 when they take it to the store. They instruct that you should not try to educate, but rather just trust to the lack of education of the cashier to accept the unrecognized currency.

Also, when I offer a Silver Liberty to a merchant, I ALWAYS leave my business card, and tell them if there's a problem to call me and I'll come buy it back.  I also make it clear that their Bank will likely not take it.

Then you are likely being more honest in your dealings than the official instructions on the Liberty Dollar website. I don't have a problem as such with a partially backed currency, my problem is in the clearly dishonest procedure they instruct people to use with that currency.

They ought to just sell the currency at a higher rate to cover their costs, and make sure that it is redeemable for an equivelent value to its face value so that people have an easy out if they lose confidence in the currency. Normally when you switch from one currency to another, you pay a premium for that service. In this case since you are paying for a newly minted currency, you would expect to pay a higher premium. Rather than charging $0.90 for a coin that is worth $0.75 and instructing people to pretend it is worth $1.00, they should charge $1.25 for a coin that is worth $1.00 and tell people to act like it is worth $1.00. That is the honest way to change currencies.

[SAK]

I was hesitant about the LD as well.  I heard about it a long long long time ago, read a bit about it, and never went back to it.  While reading about taxation and the FED and all of that, I began thinking of real currency again.  The LD popped back into mind, and I looked into it deeper.

The only problem I see with it, is that the maker wanted to raise it to "Base $20" when silver reached and stayed at $7.50.  This seems a bit steep to me.  I'm not sure how he justifies that one.  Why not at least wait until it reaches $15.00 for base $20.  Oh well -- small problem.


The bottom line -- it's backed by SOMETHING.  It's not backed by debt, it doesn't increase the national debt and your taxes, and it doesn't contribute to inflation.  It also helps to educate people, and get people used to the idea of BACKED money once again.  I mean come on, guys, some people think our money is backed by gold in Fort Knox!

So I say we start somewhere.  We can't demand 100% perfection right off the bat.  Let's start with something that will actually circulate with the masses.  I think the Liberty Dollars are that.  So start getting them in circulation -- I want to be able to receive and spend them when I get to NH

I'm a gun rights guy, and I live in Illinois.  I've learned that in order to return things to how they should be (and get back what you've lost), you need to take it back the same way you lost it -- little by little, piece by piece.  A gun bill for Vermont-style concealed carry in Illinois won't get very far, but perhaps a gun law preemption bill or a law enforcement/judge/etc carry bill might.  It sucks that this is how things work, but you have to deal with it!

Bottom line is using Liberty Dollars is 1000 times better than using FRN.  Think about that the next time you pull one out of your wallet.  It's easy to criticize something for not being perfect, but how hypocritical it is to use something even less perfect!  I'm not a Christian or a Bible thumper in any way, but the kind of talk in here knocking LD (I'm guessing by people who use FRN) is like the guy talking about the spec of sawdust in his brother's eye when he's got a fucking 2x4 in his own


P.S -- I deserve positive karma for the resurrection of this thread

How are LD doing in NH at this time?

[Bald Eagle]

I suppose the way I have always looked at the Liberty Dollar is that it's not proper to compare it with any other piece if silver of equivalent mass.  The fact that it has been minted into a coin by a large organization backing its legitimacy as a currency is what gives it the value in excess of what it's worth if melted into a blob of silver.

Most sheeple are total morons and can't figure out sales tax let alone assess the value of silver bullion.  The minting of silver into beautiful coins that are readily identified, non-trivially counterfeited (who cares, as long as they're silver!), readily accepted by people as currency, and intrinsically backed by it's 3-nines silver content is what makes it worth "a dollar."

How much is a screwdriver worth?  How much is it worth after I break or bend it?  It's certainly worth more as a screwdriver than the bulk commodity iron and plastic that it's fabricated from.    So is everything else that is manufactured.  That's what gives it value.  That's how value is created!  By some people's reasoning, books should only be worth what the paper and ink cost, and automobiles should be priced like scrap metal.  Ludicrous!

I don't see why that's so hard to understand, and therefore wonder why some people are trying to portray the manufactured Liberty Dollar as a "scam" because it's worth more than any old unrecognizable blob of metallic silver.  It's worth it to a merchant to have an instrument of value that is easily used and exchanged, is inherently valuable, and whose need to be analyzed for silver content is low due to the difficulty involved in counterfeiting such coins.

I think it's a great idea, though I'm certainly willing to listen to reasonable arguments.  Unless someone can objectively show me why it's a bad idea, I'd like to start converting every single FRN I get paid into LD's so that we can move toward purging FRN's from NH.  Let the other States live like slaves to the FedGov.

[Dreepa]

How are LD doing in NH at this time?

LD will be at the Liberty Forum.... 10 days from now!

[Lloyd Danforth]

Hi Bill!
If you stamped an eagle into your screwdriver how much more would it be worth?

The LD has intrinsic value and relative scarcity, especially the issue marked $10.00 and the early $5.00 coin.

[error]

I've got a one-ounce silver round which the NORFED people marked with "$10" in the closet, along with some warehouse receipts I haven't yet sent in for replacement since they switched to the $20 silver base. I had quite a few more last year, but I :shock: spent them!! I imagine their current owners are quite happy I did.

[Bald Eagle]

Hey there Lloyd,

I suppose the eagle-stamped screwdriver might fetch a higher price if such a thing were desirable.  How much more do clothing items which bear company logos such as Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger go for?

The point is that images stamped onto a screwdriver don't make the screwdriver any more suited to driving or removing screws, however the images stamped onto the coin make the coin more suitable as an instrument of exchange due to the identification as a LD and the difficulty in counterfeiting.

I'm don't understand the legitimacy of the presto-change-o $10 to $20 base, but I can't really say that I've yet made any concerted effort to.

[Lloyd Danforth]

No Klein or Hilfinger in my wardrobe, although, interestingly enough, some of my screwdrivers are stamped 'Klein'

[PowerPenguin]

If anyone is interested, I have a few of the new State $20 Silver Liberties. Most were issued in lots of as little as 250 units. There are also Central American LDs now. It's now an international currency! If you want one, let me know and I'll see if I can acquire some for you. I'm saving at least one of all the ones I can find, but I will offer any extras to loving owner-spenders. You all haven't touched on the collector aspect of the ALD very much in this thread... 8-)

[cyberdoo78]

I am a Liberty Associate.

I hear this from time to time about the ALD that its a rip off and its a scam and its immoral and the list goes on and on. I disagree and shortly I will give some examples for you to think about. All in all anything is better then the FRN, even sand is better, at least there is only a finite amount of sand, such is not true of the FRN. No system is perfect, however every deal is a win-win deal, if it weren't then we wouldn't have a deal.

Let me describe to you what it says on the 20 American Liberty Dollar: 'American Liberty Dollar. $20 Silver Certificate. This is a Receipt for twenty ($20.00) US Dollars given in exchange for the Title to one (1) Troy ounce of .999 fine silver. The acceptance and use of this Twenty ($20.00) Liberty Dollar Receipt is an exercise of this bearer's first Amendment right to petition the govenment for a silver backed currecny as mandated by the U.S. Constitution.' At the top of the Certficate it says in bold letters 'NEGOTIABLE'. At the bottom of the Certificate it says 'Redeemable by bearer on demand' Also it gives the phone number and website of the Liberty Dollar Org. The lower left it says '$X Silver base'(mines a $20). On the back at the top it says '$20 Liberty Dollar $20'. In the center it says, 'Warehouse Receipt. Terms: This warehouse receipt for one (1) troy ounce of .999 fine silver stored at the warehouse identifed below shall expire unless renewed or surrendered within twenty (20) years from date of issue. The undersigned warehouse official certifies that this silver is insured against fire and theft. Storage and insurance fees have been prepaid for five (5) years from date of issue. Thereafter, storage and insurance fees are one percent (%1) per year of the calue of silver prorated at the time of surrender. Additional fees limited to shipping and handling may be incurred upon surrender of this warehouse receipt.' Then it shows a date of issue with the signature of a warehouse official. It also states the warehouse where it is stored. At the bottom it says in bold letters 'NEGOTIABLE' and to the left it says, 'One ounce silver 999 fine'.

Pull out that FRN and look for any garentee like that whatsoever. You won't find it. Look at your bullion and other coins, you won't find that garentee anywhere either. By the way, the warehouse in question is not owned by the Liberty Dollar Org. It is a private company that does month audits without any interference from Liberty Dollar Org.

Now for the long awaited examples. Today's silver spot price is $12.87. My Associate Rate USD to ALD is $.89. I buy twenty two 20 Liberty Dollars from Liberty Dollar.org, at $17.83 plus $3.50 shipping and handling. Okay, my total cost is $397.96 FRN. The difference between face value and my cost on this purchase is $42.04.

Okay, I go down to your business and gather together $20 FRN worth of stuff and then present you with the 20 Liberty Dollar. You ask me what it is, I tell you its a 20 Dollar Liberty Silver Certificate. You ask me what that is, I tell you its a title of ownership to one ounce of .999 fine silver. You look at me funny so I then pull out a 20 Dollar FRN and say, I have this $20 FRN but I would rather pay you in silver. So you accept the 20 Liberty Dollar and I go away with my purchases. Then another customer comes and and gets $20 FRN worth of stuff and offers you a $50 FRN, you accept it and offer them my 20 Liberty Dollar, telling them exactly what I told you, as part of their change. They accept and go on their way. Did anyone lie, cheat, or steal from anyone? No, you told me my total is $20 dollars. I offered you a receipt for 1 ounce of silver and we agreed that it was worth $20 FRN. You offered to someone else and got back exactly the same amount of value as you traded with me from someone else. You accepted my Liberty Dollar in exchange for your product. The customer accepted the 20 Liberty Dollar for change. You do it every day with the FRN, except in this case my 20 Liberty Dollar is worth 1 ounce of silver, whereas the FRN is worthless. I ask you who is the cheater, liar, or thief?

Same example, a little different. When I present you the 20 Liberty Dollar, you ask what is it worth. I tell you I paid $17.90 FRN for it, and its suggested value is $20 FRN. You then say, that will accept it for $17.90 for it. I agree its worth that much and then offer you the remaining $2.10 FRN to cover the remainder. I then take my stuff and leave. Later, the next customer comes in and you complete the transaction again as before. Did anyone cheat, lie, or steal from anyone? Again the answer is no. Did make money on the transaction, yes. Is that wrong or dishonest? No, the Federal government and banks do it all the time, and you don't complain much, except what they give you is worthless, and you gave something away that is worth something. If you don't question what you are given you are accepting that what you are given is worth what you think it is worth, even if later you find out its worth nothing. I mean we all did that till the day we found out that the FRN was worthless.

Lets say you couldn't get anyone to take the 20 Liberty Dollar, you call me up and say you want to give it back. I tell you the spot price of silver is at $14.94 and my FRN to ALD rate is $.94. I offer you $18.96(remember my shipping and handling costs) FRN for the 20 Liberty Dollar. You get angry and start yelling at me that I am ripping you off because we agreed it was worth $17.90 not just two days ago. I say, fine, then I offer you $20 FRN for your 20 ALD. You accept and appoligize for the outburst. I tell you thats okay and offer to take any other ALD off your hands. Now don't you feel like an ass? You'll prolly call me back again the next time you can't get rid of an ALD. Now who is lied, cheated, or a thief? Again, no one. Why would I offer you a premimum amount for the ALD? Easy, I will break even when I take your 20 ALD and exchange it with someone else, add to that the fact that I get all my ALD at a discount so I have a little bit of profit I can give away. Beyond the money angle, what about your acceptance of the ALD? You are more likely to accept it from anyone knowing that I will exchange it for you and that I am apparently a reasonable person.

Okay, so what if the value of tea(or silver or gold or whatever) is $12.87. Does it really matter what the spot price of silver is if you can exchange one item of value for an equal amount of currency? Let me ask you something else. Is the value of something defined by the market or is it instead defined by how much something is worth to the buyer/seller? The market is a guideline, it isn't law. A car isn't worth more or less because someone says it is, it still gets you from point A to point B.

Ultimately a silver based currency is better then one that isn't. And its up to -you- to accept or decline the ALD. However if you are business, and you don't accept my ALD, and the guy across the street has a similar item, even if it is slightly more, and he accepts ALD, I'm taking my business over to him. I think most people will once they are educated about the worthlessness of the FRN and the value of the ALD. Perhaps someday the ALD will replace the FRN as the currency of choice, and if you get on the bandwagon now, you'll make more money doing it now, then you will later.

Blessings to you all and live free or die.

[PinoX7]

I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.

It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money untill FRN are not accepted anymore

[error]

Bad money drives out good. That's an economic principle that somebody put forth, whose name I forget at present.

But that's okay. When the shit hits the fan people will remember they've got good money sitting in the back of their dresser drawers.

[lordmetroid]

The interview on sovereign solution with Nothaus really explained everything I needed to know about the currency and specially what more it is than a gold depot and why the value isn't on a 1:1 basis of value.

And after that I think liberty dollar is indeed good. I am all upity about the potentially being able to use it.