The American Liberty Dollar

[Michael Fisher]

You should not be as concerned with the positive effects of the LD as much as the possible negative effects.? That said, I've found something about this.

6. RCOs convert ALD to FRN at face value for "contracted merchants" only within their region. RCOs may provide convertibility to anyone else.

2. RCO Code of Ethics
b. RCO shall convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs at full face value for any Contracted Merchant within his region.

An RCO is not required to convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs unless the person is a Contracted Merchant with that RCO.

My only problem with the LD now is this:

How can an RCO NOT lose money doing this?? They give out LDs for less than $10, then they exchange them for $10?

For example:? Let's say an RCO gives you an LD for $8.? You go to the store and use it for "$10".? The store comes back to the RCO to exchange it for $10 US.? The RCO loses $2.

The only way an RCO could make money on this would be if people did not try to redeem their LDs.? If people did, the RDs could not survive.? This is why RCOs are NOT required to convert LDs to FRNs.? They would go bankrupt if the LD became too popular and LD to FRN conversion was mandatory.

This is my favorite quote from the LD website:? (http://www.libertydollar.org/html/silvertwice.asp)

"Exchanging $10.00 for a Silver Certificate when silver spot is $5.00 per ounce is very reasonable given the costs involved and they are much better than those dreaded Federal Reserve Note."

HOW can you trust them when they say something like this?? HOW???

I may be alone in my opposition to the LD.  That is fine.  I know it is wrong.

[FTL_Ian]

6. RCOs convert ALD to FRN at face value for "contracted merchants" only within their region. RCOs may provide convertibility to anyone else.

2. RCO Code of Ethics
b. RCO shall convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs at full face value for any Contracted Merchant within his region.

An RCO is not required to convert Liberty Dollars to FRNs unless the person is a Contracted Merchant with that RCO.

The impression I've gotten from associates is that they are trying to make a difference, not defraud people.  Most regular associates offer to exchange FRNs for LDs, specifically to the person they have paid LDs to.

How can an RCO NOT lose money doing this?  They give out LDs for less than $10, then they exchange them for $10?

For example:  Let's say an RCO gives you an LD for $8.  You go to the store and use it for "$10".  The store comes back to the RCO to exchange it for $10 US.  The RCO loses $2.

Yes, the RCO would "lose" $2.  However, this is apparantly an unusual occurance.  The intention is to sell the merchant on accepting and giving out the LD as change.  This allows the merchant to profit when he gives change, and proliferates the LD.

The only way an RCO could make money on this would be if people did not try to redeem their LDs.  If people did, the RDs could not survive.

Exactly.  We want people to spend their LDs, not redeem them.  Clearly if people don't see the value in the LD, they will redeem them.  We're hoping they see the value.  If they don't this country is fucked monitarily. 

This is why RCOs are NOT required to convert LDs to FRNs.  They would go bankrupt if the LD became too popular and LD to FRN conversion was mandatory.

If the LD becomes "too popular", it's BECAUSE people are circulating them, and NOT converting them back.

This is my favorite quote from the LD website:  (http://www.libertydollar.org/html/silvertwice.asp)

"Exchanging $10.00 for a Silver Certificate when silver spot is $5.00 per ounce is very reasonable given the costs involved and they are much better than those dreaded Federal Reserve Note."

HOW can you trust them when they say something like this?  HOW???

Because silver has value, and FRNs are crap.

I may be alone in my opposition to the LD.  That is fine.  I know it is wrong.

It took me a while to come around to it myself.  What finally convinced me to join was when Von NotHaus endorsed the FSP.  He's a member, I've spoken with him by phone.  The Liberty Dollar isn't perfect, but it's worlds better than the FRN.

Regards,
Ian

[Russell Kanning]

I am with you Mike.....I don't think Redemption Centers have to give you $10 for each silver piece....
But I still like them

[Dave Ridley]

Guys I have a suggestion:  Those of you who have liberty dollars for sale , please bring them to every freedom-lover event and social you attend!  That way we can buy them from you!  and don't be shy about letting us know you've got em for sale when you see us.  I  just got done spending 2 hours with Jim and forgot to ask him if he had any LD's with him for sale!

[Ron Helwig]

Guys I have a suggestion:  Those of you who have liberty dollars for sale , please bring them to every freedom-lover event and social you attend!  That way we can buy them from you!  and don't be shy about letting us know you've got em for sale when you see us.  I  just got done spending 2 hours with Jim and forgot to ask him if he had any LD's with him for sale!

I always do this. The people at work have almost all held them in their hands as well.

BTW, AFAIK RCOs are NOT required to exchange $10FRN for $10ALD to just anyone. They have to for Merchants who have signed up, but a regular Joe might not. (Some RCOs DO exchange face for face, because they believe in it so strongly, but they are not required) The deal for merchants is an incentive thing. The merchant gets a discount on their purchase from the RCO, and gets a guarantee of face when exchanging it back. I guess that the RCO doesn't go broke from arbitrage because they sell more than they exchange back to FRNs.

[YeahItsMeJP]

In researching the RCO stuff, in the RCO Handbook that a friend of mine has, I found that RCO are supposed to exchange $ for $ ALD/FRN. If they aren't, it is my belief they are doing so against their contract.

[Scott Roth]

Folks, it may not be a perfect system, but it's a great place to start.  Mike, do you have any interest in pursuing something like Ralph Borsodi did?  I would love to work with you on it.

[BillG]

I love Google. 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/menarch/archive/issues/027/027-082-01.htm

http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/swann_robert_on_borsodi_and_money.html

http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/swann24.html

hey Mike...don't forget to give credit where credit is due!

[BillG]

I've been wanting to do this for a long time, but I have far too many responsibilties right now, and joining this effort would only dilute my highly-diluted efforts.   

You can base a currency on labor like the Ithaca Hours, or on a mix of commodities like the Borsodi Constants, or you can just try to start using real gold and silver bullion as currency.

I haven't tried it yet on others, but I will accept silver and gold, at current market values, as payment for any debt that is owed to me.

or land as Borsodi was the foremost authority on Land Trusts as well as being a Georgist...

[Scott Roth]

Just got a copy of "Inflation and The Coming Keynesian Catastrophe" by Ralph Borsodi, in which he talks about the story of the Exeter experiments with Constants.  Great reading, folks.  Everyone that is interested in alternative currencies should get a copy.  As I have said before, the LD is not a perfect system, but it far better than the FRN system we have now.  The LD is at least worth its weight in silver, where the FRN isn't even worth the paper it's printed on.  And while the LD system has some aspects that could be improved upon, it picks up where our government left off...and it's not controlled by the government.  So, one more for the people!  So, we can all sit on our asses and argue and debate, or we can get out there and make a difference.  Whatever...

[BillG]

Just got a copy of "Inflation and The Coming Keynesian Catastrophe" by Ralph Borsodi, in which he talks about the story of the Exeter experiments with Constants.? Great reading, folks.? Everyone that is interested in alternative currencies should get a copy.? As I have said before, the LD is not a perfect system, but it far better than the FRN system we have now.? The LD is at least worth its weight in silver, where the FRN isn't even worth the paper it's printed on.? And while the LD system has some aspects that could be improved upon, it picks up where our government left off...and it's not controlled by the government.? So, one more for the people!? So, we can all sit on our asses and argue and debate, or we can get out there and make a difference.? Whatever...

where did you get a copy - new or used?

[Scott Roth]

I got my copy online from the E.F. Schumacher Society. 

[BillG]

I got my copy online from the E.F. Schumacher Society.?

make sense...

[Atanamis]

LeRuineur6 is correct. The problem is not that Liberty dollars cost more to buy than the silver they are worth, but that when you attempt to buy things with it you claim that it is worth more than its value. Let me give an example:

1) I pay US $10 for a 1 ounce Liberty Dollar coin.
2) Due to the current exchange rate, the Liberty Dollar coin has a redeemable value of $7.11
3) If I now go to a merchant and attempt to purchase goods priced at more than $7.11 with a coin redeemable for one ounce of silver, I am essentially defrauding the merchant.

I have no problem with anyone here choosing to pay US $2.89 for the convenience of converting their unbacked US currency into a secure, easily tradeable form with precious metals backing. As others have suggested, the price of buying a Liberty Dollar may well be worth the cost difference. However, it is fraud to tell a merchant that your one ounce silver certificate is worth $10 just because that is what you paid for it.

By using Liberty dollars as equivelent to US dollars, you do not educate anyone. In fact, the Liberty Dollar website specifically recommends that you do not educate people when you attempt to use the Liberty Dollar, but rather to trust to their ignorance to cause them to accept your currency. When I travel internationally, I never expect people to exchange my currency on a one-to-one basis without question. Expecting US merchants to do so is taking advantage of their ignorance. Being dishonest in your trades is not the way to teach people to use a backed currency.

[FTL_Ian]

There's no dishonesty involved.  Silver has real value, FRNs do not.  $1000 in FRNs isn't worth what a $10 Silver Liberty is, in terms of backing. 

Also, when I offer a Silver Liberty to a merchant, I ALWAYS leave my business card, and tell them if there's a problem to call me and I'll come buy it back.  I also make it clear that their Bank will likely not take it.