The American Liberty Dollar

[PinoX7]

one argument ive heared before was why would he sell gold for FRN,
The only explanaition is that he cant pay debts in gold and silver. But still hes taking bad money in exchange for good money.
He doesnt seem like a buisiness man doing it for just the money though, I think he just wants to put another option out there.

[cyberdoo78]

I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.

It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money until FRN are not accepted anymore

I disagree with your assumption. I attempt to use my Liberties every chance I get. I have a few that take it without any question, because when I run out, I come back to them and buy them back. Shipping charges are a pain in the ass in Alaska. Course, not everyone I deal with will let me buy them back at face value, most want to charge more so I don't buy them back.

People don't understand money. They need to be educated and I do that every time I use my Liberties because without exception every time I do, I find at least one person who has interest in it.

Further I have spoken with 4 merchants who love the idea and agreed to accept them. They are not yet willing to sign on to use them in their business, however they have taken the first step. I'm working to educate other businesses in the use of local currency.

I continue to talk to people and to other businesses and most, if not all, agree that they like the Liberty. I'm working on creating a cooperative in my area using the Liberty as the local currency however it expensive to create the materials needed so I only convert those who I can afford to.

If you like the Liberty, then get off your ass and do something about it. Everything you need is on the Liberty web site. Take that same initiative that you use to protest and use it to educate people. Don't be forceful, just be polite and honest. If you are it will show and help people understand the problem with the 'bad' money.

As for your reasoning for why he would sell gold or silver for FRN, you are right in that you can't pay government debts with gold or silver because the governments won't take it.

People can't seem to break away from the idea that gold, silver, or FRN are anything but commodities. Each has its worth, and its worth is not what the issuers say it is, but what the market says they are. People who point out that the Liberty isn't worth the silver and gold they are based on fail to realize they are talking about two different commodities. Silver and gold as offered by the market are based on ounces on a 5000 ounce brick, not some coin minted from some company, public or private. So to say that this 1 oz coin is worth the same price that 1 oz is on the market is simple theft.

If you had a 5000 oz brick, there are costs associated with taking that oz out of that brick, pouring it to a mold, taking it out of mold, striking it, and then shining it so it looks all pretty and stuff. So no one can say that they 1 oz coin in their pocket is the same as the 1 oz being offered at the market.

The Liberty Dollar shows that there are costs within manufacturing a coin, or a certificate and take that into account when they issue it. Thats why they issue it above the 'market spot price for silver in 5000 oz bricks' because it costs money along the way from the market to the final product.

The Liberty is no different then the silver or gold on the market or the FRN in that they are products. Each has costs associated with it to make each of them. It costs about 5 cents to make every FRN but they sell well above their cost and you don't complain. You don't do anything to change the system. The various coins you buy aren't sold at market price either, they are sold near market price, like the Liberty is, minus the costs of the various steps in production.

As for Von NotHaus, he isn't doing it for the money, he truly wants to change the system for the better, to get rid of the illegal money in circulation and replace it with good legal money. But like any product it needs marketing, and education to understand what it is. Is it perfect? No, but it is better then the alternative.

By the way, anyone interested in learning how or what I do to when I talk to people can hit my up on my IM or email.

[LordBaltimore]

SAK (Shaun) posted on the makethestand.com forum that he was arrested on Sunday when he tried to use a Liberty Dollar. He was supposed to go to court today. Has anyone heard anything?

[PinoX7]

I think most of you are missing a big flaw in Liberty dollars.
A Liberty Dollar would be considered = Good Money
While a FRN would be considered = Bad Money
When good money is introduced into a system where bad money is still in exchange, and widely accepted (such as the 2000 1$ coin) what happens is when you have 100$ of Good and also 100$ of bad money, you will tend to only spend the bad money, and save the good money. What happens is all the 'good money' remains in all the peoples homes while the 'bad money' is still being circulated.

It would be fun to get people involved, but honestly you could never use liberty dollars as money until FRN are not accepted anymore

I disagree with your assumption. I attempt to use my Liberties every chance I get. I have a few that take it without any question, because when I run out, I come back to them and buy them back. Shipping charges are a pain in the ass in Alaska. Course, not everyone I deal with will let me buy them back at face value, most want to charge more so I don't buy them back.

Thats exactly the point i was trying to make, They KEEP the real money, and they dont want your FRN for good money. So they keep it, in their homes, pockets, or whereever, but they would just as soon hold on to it because it has value.

[cyberdoo78]

Ya, you could get arrested for using it, but then again you could get arrested for just about anything today.

I see your point, but a majority of people I deal with trade it, they don't keep it. Its a currency, and not a collectible.

[PinoX7]

yeah, never said it was a bad idea,
just has some flaws, its a good educational tool though, cause people will want to get involved

[cyberdoo78]

That can be said of just about anything, money or not.

I think Anarchy would be a better form of government, the flaw is that people don't know what it is. I think Ron Paul would make a great president, the media either doesn't talk about him, or when they do, the ridicule him without giving him the benefit of the doubt like all the other candidates. All flaws.

I think no other form of currency has the following attributes that the Liberty does. Convenience in trade, it has a value stamped on it that both parties can agree on or negotiate on. Convenience in carrying, in either its paper form or its digital form, you can carry a couple hundred with you if you wanted to. Convertibility, it can quickly be interchanged with the world standard, the US Dollar, either at face value or some other value to be agreed on. It has intrinsic value, it is made of trip 9 fine silver and will never be worth 0 as 5000 years of history has shown.

I can not think of any other currency out there with such flexibility as the Liberty.

[cxxguy]

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.


Hmmm ... it seems that a state can make gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.  But it cannot coin money.  I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to grok exactly what this implies.

[KBCraig]

Hmmm ... it seems that a state can make gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts.  But it cannot coin money.  I'm not well enough versed in the terminology to grok exactly what this implies.

They can't coin the money. They also can't require that you pay your debts in wampum, beads, chickens, or diamonds.

Kevin

[error]

Or goddamned pieces of paper.

[Caleb]

See, I read that differently.  It says that the State cannot allow ANYTHING to pass as legal tender that isn't gold and silver coin.

In other words, doesn't the state have a constitutional obligation to oppose frn's, since they aren't gold and silver coin?

[error]

It's the feds that force the states to accept other than gold and silver as legal tender.

[Caleb]

But constitutionally, the states aren't allowed to let that happen.

[error]

The whole thing is a clusterfuck and should be scrapped.

[Caleb]

The Constitution? Or the Liberty dollar?    Either way I agree with you.