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So I was watching cops...

Started by aries, November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT

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aries

A cop pulled over this 17 year old girl and kept asking her about drugs...she denied having any and finally he gave her a ticket and said "do you understand that you are free to go?" And she said yes. He asked about drugs a final time and she said "I dont have any... you can check."

And so he did and found crack and weed. Called her mother on her own cell phone, cuffed her, put her in the car, talked with mom, mom talked with her daughter, and they took her away.

moral of the story:


Just say no to consent.

error

Er, when the cop says you're free to go, the only thing to do is to say goodbye and get the hell out of there.

KurtDaBear

Quote from: aries on November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT
Just say no to consent.
I have given this some thought, and police can ask the consent question a couple of ways:  "1) Do you mind if I search your car?" or 2) "May I search your car?"
Unless there's a very high-quality recording running, if you answer "yes" or "No," they can just say they put the question the other way around and you must have misunderstood.  So I've concluded that the best thing to do would be to make a clear and unequivocal statement: "You may NOT search my car" with a major emphasis on the "NOT." 
Of course, son Spencer, the attorney, always says to never say anything to the police, which would probably work also, since silence cannot possibly be construed as consent in a situation where permission is being asked.
It is good always to remember that if the police stop you, they are, by definition, on duty; that courts have said that they are free to lie in anything they tell you or ask you; and that the friendlier they seem the more dangerous they are.

Brock

Counselor Curtis (ex public defender) from The Jimmy Doane Show suggests to respond.  No matter what the question is, you anwer with, "is is OK if I say 'no'?"

No matter what the question:

"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"Is it OK if I say 'no'?"

"Did you see me sitting by the stop light?"
"Is it OK if I say 'no'?"

"Are you trying to piss me off?"
"Is it OK if I say 'no'?"

"Do these pants make my ass look big?"
...

aries

Quote from: KurtDaBear on November 25, 2006, 11:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: aries on November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT
Just say no to consent.
I have given this some thought, and police can ask the consent question a couple of ways:  "1) Do you mind if I search your car?" or 2) "May I search your car?"
Unless there's a very high-quality recording running, if you answer "yes" or "No," they can just say they put the question the other way around and you must have misunderstood.  So I've concluded that the best thing to do would be to make a clear and unequivocal statement: "You may NOT search my car" with a major emphasis on the "NOT." 
Of course, son Spencer, the attorney, always says to never say anything to the police, which would probably work also, since silence cannot possibly be construed as consent in a situation where permission is being asked.
It is good always to remember that if the police stop you, they are, by definition, on duty; that courts have said that they are free to lie in anything they tell you or ask you; and that the friendlier they seem the more dangerous they are.


Thus "I do not consent to any searches"

KBCraig

Quote from: KurtDaBear on November 25, 2006, 11:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: aries on November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT
Just say no to consent.
I have given this some thought, and police can ask the consent question a couple of ways:  "1) Do you mind if I search your car?" or 2) "May I search your car?"

It's usually more ambiguous: "You don't mind if we search your car, do you?"

That's why it's important to make the reply unambiguous: "I don't consent to a search."


aries

Quote from: KBCraig on November 26, 2006, 11:16 AM NHFT
Quote from: KurtDaBear on November 25, 2006, 11:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: aries on November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT
Just say no to consent.
I have given this some thought, and police can ask the consent question a couple of ways:  "1) Do you mind if I search your car?" or 2) "May I search your car?"

It's usually more ambiguous: "You don't mind if we search your car, do you?"

That's why it's important to make the reply unambiguous: "I don't consent to a search."



Or even simply "I do mind."

Insurgent

I keep a card with the following printed on it in my vehicle at all times, in an envelope with the registration and insurance:

Officer, please understand:

I refuse to talk to you until I consult with my attorney. I also refuse to consent to any search of these premises or any other premises under my control, or in which I have a possessory, proprietary, or privacy interest, including my car, my body, or effects. I hereby demand to immediately be allowed the reasonable opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney by telephone.

I desire to exercise all my rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire, to be free from your interference with my person or affairs.

If you attempt to question me, I want my lawyer present. I refuse to participate in any line-up or to perform any physical acts, or to speak or display my person or property at your direction, without first conferring with my lawyer.

If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights. If you ignore my exercise of these rights and attempt to procure a waiver, I want to confer with my lawyer prior to any conversations with you.

If I am to be taken into custody, removed from my present location, or separated from my property, I request a reasonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. I do not consent to any impoundment or inventory of my property. I do, hereby, waive any claim of liability for loss, theft, or damage against you, your superiors or any other authority, and agree to hold all harmless therefrom, if I am afforded the reasonable opportunity to arrange for the safekeeping of my own property. If this reasonable opportunity is denied or is unavailable, I demand that only such intrusion occur as is minimally necessary to secure such property, hereby waiving any claim of liability for your failure to scrutinize the property or its contents prior to it being secured.

If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so that I may go about my business.

Michael Fisher

Quote from: Insurgent on November 26, 2006, 01:53 PM NHFT
I keep a card with the following printed on it in my vehicle at all times, in an envelope with the registration and insurance:

Officer, please understand:

I refuse to talk to you until I consult with my attorney. I also refuse to consent to any search of these premises or any other premises under my control, or in which I have a possessory, proprietary, or privacy interest, including my car, my body, or effects. I hereby demand to immediately be allowed the reasonable opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney by telephone.

I desire to exercise all my rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire, to be free from your interference with my person or affairs.

If you attempt to question me, I want my lawyer present. I refuse to participate in any line-up or to perform any physical acts, or to speak or display my person or property at your direction, without first conferring with my lawyer.

If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights. If you ignore my exercise of these rights and attempt to procure a waiver, I want to confer with my lawyer prior to any conversations with you.

If I am to be taken into custody, removed from my present location, or separated from my property, I request a reasonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. I do not consent to any impoundment or inventory of my property. I do, hereby, waive any claim of liability for loss, theft, or damage against you, your superiors or any other authority, and agree to hold all harmless therefrom, if I am afforded the reasonable opportunity to arrange for the safekeeping of my own property. If this reasonable opportunity is denied or is unavailable, I demand that only such intrusion occur as is minimally necessary to secure such property, hereby waiving any claim of liability for your failure to scrutinize the property or its contents prior to it being secured.

If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so that I may go about my business.

You're probably beaten, searched, arrested, and your property confiscated on principle: the principle that you don't recognize who's really in charge, here! ;)

Insurgent

Quote from: Michael Fisher on November 26, 2006, 02:01 PM NHFT
Quote from: Insurgent on November 26, 2006, 01:53 PM NHFT
I keep a card with the following printed on it in my vehicle at all times, in an envelope with the registration and insurance:

Officer, please understand:

I refuse to talk to you until I consult with my attorney. I also refuse to consent to any search of these premises or any other premises under my control, or in which I have a possessory, proprietary, or privacy interest, including my car, my body, or effects. I hereby demand to immediately be allowed the reasonable opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney by telephone.

I desire to exercise all my rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire, to be free from your interference with my person or affairs.

If you attempt to question me, I want my lawyer present. I refuse to participate in any line-up or to perform any physical acts, or to speak or display my person or property at your direction, without first conferring with my lawyer.

If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights. If you ignore my exercise of these rights and attempt to procure a waiver, I want to confer with my lawyer prior to any conversations with you.

If I am to be taken into custody, removed from my present location, or separated from my property, I request a reasonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. I do not consent to any impoundment or inventory of my property. I do, hereby, waive any claim of liability for loss, theft, or damage against you, your superiors or any other authority, and agree to hold all harmless therefrom, if I am afforded the reasonable opportunity to arrange for the safekeeping of my own property. If this reasonable opportunity is denied or is unavailable, I demand that only such intrusion occur as is minimally necessary to secure such property, hereby waiving any claim of liability for your failure to scrutinize the property or its contents prior to it being secured.

If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so that I may go about my business.

You're probably beaten, searched, arrested, and your property confiscated on principle: the principle that you don't recognize who's really in charge, here! ;)

I haven't been stopped since carrying that card, or since having put on all my bumper stickers--including one that says "I do not consent to being searched". It hasn't happened yet, but that may be how it goes down. Maybe the dashcam video will get put all over YouTube, at least  :-\

Tyler Stearns

Quote from: Insurgent on November 26, 2006, 02:14 PM NHFT
I haven't been stopped since carrying that card, or since having put on all my bumper stickers--including one that says "I do not consent to being searched".

I think I have the same one on my truck.  I got stopped a couple months back (coming home from the NHLA Liberty Dinner of all places).  Apparently I failed to use my directional.  Well me and the cop were the only people on the road, it was 10:30 at night, and this turn that I didn't use my directional on is confusing because it is not clear who has the right of way. 

So I'm pretty sure I got stopped for having a half-dozen anti-government bumper stickers on my truck because I might be a troublemaker.  I think he was surprised to find a clean shaven guy dressed in a suit coat and tie.  I'm pretty sure since I didn't look like a threat I only got a warning and no search.

Spencer

Quote from: KurtDaBear on November 25, 2006, 11:17 PM NHFT
Quote from: aries on November 25, 2006, 08:39 PM NHFT
Just say no to consent.
I have given this some thought, and police can ask the consent question a couple of ways:  "1) Do you mind if I search your car?" or 2) "May I search your car?"
Unless there's a very high-quality recording running, if you answer "yes" or "No," they can just say they put the question the other way around and you must have misunderstood.  So I've concluded that the best thing to do would be to make a clear and unequivocal statement: "You may NOT search my car" with a major emphasis on the "NOT." 
Of course, son Spencer, the attorney, always says to never say anything to the police, which would probably work also, since silence cannot possibly be construed as consent in a situation where permission is being asked.
It is good always to remember that if the police stop you, they are, by definition, on duty; that courts have said that they are free to lie in anything they tell you or ask you; and that the friendlier they seem the more dangerous they are.


Whether silence is consent or not is not as clear as one (with common sense) might think.  So, the rule is JUST SAY NO!  The cops are not likely to beat you to a bloody pulp or anything because there are plenty of other sheeple out there who are perfectly "willing" to "consent" to a search when they are "free to leave."  Always ask to have a lawyer present before answering any questions; even if you don't actually want to hire / consult with one.

Insurgent's card is a great approach because you don't say anything but are asserting your rights (keep multiple copies -- let the cop keep the one you gave him -- and make a note of his name / badge number / date of the encounter on the back of your permanent copy).

While I am NOT the biggest fan of the ACLU (they are quite selective about what constitutes a "civil right"), here's a card that you can print to carry around that tells you your general rights in police encounters (note: it is a PDF):

http://action.aclu.org/site/DocServer/know_your_rights.pdf?docID=161

And, of course, I love the Flex Your Rights folks:

http://www.flexyourrights.org/traffic_stop_scenario
http://www.flexyourrights.org/street_stop_scenario
http://www.flexyourrights.org/at_your_door

Here's their tribute to the late Milton Friedman:

http://www.flexyourrights.org/2006_11_17_nobel_laureate_busted_endorser_milton_friedman_dies

Transition Force

Quote from: Insurgent on November 26, 2006, 01:53 PM NHFT
I keep a card with the following printed on it in my vehicle at all times, in an envelope with the registration and insurance:

Officer, please understand:

I refuse to talk to you until I consult with my attorney. I also refuse to consent to any search of these premises or any other premises under my control, or in which I have a possessory, proprietary, or privacy interest, including my car, my body, or effects. I hereby demand to immediately be allowed the reasonable opportunity to obtain the advice of my attorney by telephone.

I desire to exercise all my rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Hampshire, to be free from your interference with my person or affairs.

If you attempt to question me, I want my lawyer present. I refuse to participate in any line-up or to perform any physical acts, or to speak or display my person or property at your direction, without first conferring with my lawyer.

If I am under arrest, I wish to invoke and exercise my Miranda rights. If you ignore my exercise of these rights and attempt to procure a waiver, I want to confer with my lawyer prior to any conversations with you.

If I am to be taken into custody, removed from my present location, or separated from my property, I request a reasonable opportunity to make arrangements to secure my own property. I do not consent to any impoundment or inventory of my property. I do, hereby, waive any claim of liability for loss, theft, or damage against you, your superiors or any other authority, and agree to hold all harmless therefrom, if I am afforded the reasonable opportunity to arrange for the safekeeping of my own property. If this reasonable opportunity is denied or is unavailable, I demand that only such intrusion occur as is minimally necessary to secure such property, hereby waiving any claim of liability for your failure to scrutinize the property or its contents prior to it being secured.

If I am not under arrest, I want to leave. If I am free to leave, please tell me immediately so that I may go about my business.

What size card do you put that on?

Insurgent

I have it copy and pasted in to a Word document. Depending on the size font you use will determine the size of paper needed. I have mine on a half-sheet of 8x11 heavy paper.