Sign the First 1000 pledge!

[FTL_Ian]

It's obvious there was a major uptick in phony signatures after Dec. 16.  Posting the "dodgeit" link was a bonehead move, Ian.

Information is a dangerous thing.  I simply revealed obvious security holes that had already been exploited.  I agree, it may have been a mistake.

Are you angrier because I revealed a potential cheat?  Or that I revealed how easily cheated the pledgebank system is?

[Caleb]

Every once in a long while, I feel like telling you to grow the f*** up, Russell, and this is one of those times.  How does all this frivolity fit into your Jesus/Gandhi/Thoreau paradigm?

Rocketman, I'm going to stick up for Russell on this one.  You're not being even a little fair. 

The only thing Russell did (as a joke to make fun of a troll on this forum) was to sign up for a fake pledgebank poll.  He didn't even remember doing it.  Kat had to remind him.  I can guarantee you that Russell didn't sign up even a single fake person, nor would the thought of doing so have occurred to him.

As for posting a private e-mail, I will agree that it is normally bad etiquette.  There is a caveat though ... Russell is famous for telling people not to send him anything or tell him anything that they don't want made public.  It's not like Varrin has never heard Russell's privacy policy, and Varrin doesn't seem upset about it.  Other people are the ones getting their panties in a wad over it.

I agree with you on the fraudulent additions to the First 1000.  But Russell was not implicated, and you singling him out was unfair.

Caleb

[Kat Kanning]

If someone gives me an email, it becomes my property and I'll do with it as I wish.

[error]

If someone gives me an email, it becomes my property and I'll do with it as I wish.

Like print it in the newspaper?

* error waits impatiently for the next issue of the Keene Free Press to find out all the latest stock tips and deals on cheap Viagra

[citizen_142002]

You know I think I had a pretty good point there and people just argued right past it. This bitching about each other isn't doing anything to make us more free.

Can we please focus on getting the wrongful deletions back on the pledge, and bury the mud slinging until the deadline has gone by???

Is everyone so insecure that they need to defend their honor on a stupid pledgebank controversy. Please, everyone grow up. There may be some good reason to be mad, but just save it for a few days.

Can you do that folks?

[Caleb]

Nick, I don't think anyone here has access to the list of who has been deleted and who has not.  Perhaps Varrin can get that for you if you'd like to peruse the list and try to contact the people who have been deleted.  It is frustrating, though, because like I said, no matter what happens with the First 1000, at this point because of what happened there is going to be a percentage of people who are going to feel that the results are tainted.

[error]

I don't care all that much about fake names on the pledge.

I really don't care all that much about REAL signers of the pledge, either.

I care about working for more liberty.

Whether you signed the pledge or not, or whether some of the names on it are fake or not, and whether your name was inadvertently removed from the pledge or not, these things are not that important. What's important is that you make the move!

[Russell Kanning]

I guess I am not as into personal privacy as some "libertarians" ... so sue me.
I personally am trying to recruit as many immature revolutionaries into The Shire as possible.

Every once in a long while, I feel like telling you to grow the f*** up, Russell, and this is one of those times.  How does all this frivolity fit into your Jesus/Gandhi/Thoreau paradigm?

How is joking incompatible with that paradigm?

[citizen_142002]

The results were always going to contain a percentage of false signatures. Ian was right to point out that pledgebank is open to all kinds of fraud. He may not have done it in the most prudent way, but anyway that's not the point.

I have contacted Varrin about obtaining the deletions, though I suspect they may be denied out of privacy concerns, which seems absurd to me since the assertion is that they aren't real people.

If I can get my hands on the list I will most definitely be contacting people, and I would make it available to other people who are working to get 1000 signers. If we can get the errored deletions back on, then we will actually receive a kind of boost.

error, you make a great point, but the reality is that many people's willingness to move is based on whether we can get at least 1000 people in New Hampshire, which is why the First 1000 is important.

[varrin]

Y'all,

I didn't intend to get sucked into this thread, but I do think it would be best for me to give an update.  Here are responses to I *think* all the relevant stuff:

1:  It's bad form to publically post private emails without prior permission, even for people like Kat and Russell (despite what they may think).  Having said that, A) I know both Kat and Russell and know they're prone to forward, publish, and/or otherwise redistribute pretty much anything that comes their way, and B) that email wasn't private to Russell only.  Ian, Mark (Edge), and the whole O-list were also copied on it, so it wasn't exactly private to begin with.  I *normally* attempt to communicate in writing in ways that won't embarrass the daylights out of me if it's reposted anywhere.  That's not an absolute policy and this should *not* be construed as blanket permission to repost anything I ever send to anyone privately, but in this case it's no biggie (had he asked, I would have happily posted the whole thread myself).  I do wish he had formatted it better, though

2:  I continue to hold the position that it was unwise for Ian to post a "If you wanted to be less than honest..." email.  I said from the beginning that I wasn't accusing Ian of advocating dishonesty nor of participating in it, but merely stating it that way was poor.  Similarly, I was surprised (and still am) that Russell signed the fraudulent signature pledge, even as a joke.  I don't believe he'd actually enter fake pledges, but advocating it by signing that pledge was not good.  Having heard that he did so as a joke and promptly forgot about it sounds far more in line with his character than it appeared even to the informed observer.  Still, bad form on both parts (and I'm glad to see Ian acknowledge that here).

3:  I am convinced there is not a malicious person at pledgebank maliciously deleting pledge signatures.  I don't know the total number of signatures that have been removed but I'm confident it's less than 100 (I'd estimate about 70-75 total).  I have been in communication with customer service there for the last two days.  They are being very responsive and we're working to resolve the issue.  Sending nasty emails and/or trashing them publically might not be so smart, espeically prior to finding out what actually happened.

4:  I have detected two blocks of deletions.  I have not begun to investigate the first block, but I believe I should do so.  That *may* have been a separate issue, but if it's the same issue, it will need to be resolved, too.  I have gained much more information about the second block.  I have heard multiple reports that at least some people who were deleted were legitimate signers.  There is, however, conflicting information which requires further investigation.  It is not yet clear how many signatures are legitimate.  If it turns out that the signatures are fraudulent, I will do my best to determine who committed the fraud and expose the facts I have discovered.  If there are any legitimate signatures, all of the signatures reasonably presumed to be legitimate will be reinstated (less any duplicates we can detect).  It does appear likely that all of the deleted signatures came from either one or two people.  Pledgebank is being quite helpful in the investigation.

5:  I don't think I will be able to obtain an actual list of the people removed from the pledgebank site.  Pledgebank is charged with guarding the privacy of that information, which includes from people like me (the FSP President) and Ian (the 'official' pledge initiator).  Similarly, the FSP will not release a list of names of people who have been removed, aside from those who are already indicated publically (see the BOD meeting minutes if you're interested).  Brian Sullivan already posted a suitable response to that issue.  What I have been working on is determining if there is sufficient evidence to determine that the 'batches' are fraudulent and, if so, keep them removed, or, if not, have them reinstated.  I hope it will be possible to accomplish that.

6:  Yes, we should be working on getting more signatures.  I have personally recruited both new signers and new callers within the last couple of days.  I hope the rest of you will do the same. 

More later,

V-

[Russell Kanning]

Did you see my sig line Rocketman .... maybe I have attained stage 2 status.

[FTL_Ian]

It wouldn't matter if you got the email addresses, citizen.   Any signatures from dodgeit.com are likely fake, but there's no way to be sure.

[FTL_Ian]

Naturally, we'll be discussing the whole issue on the Xmas day edition of FTL.  Be sure to call in with your thoughts.  Perhaps all this controversy will push the remaining legit signatures...

[citizen_142002]

Well it's good to hear that you're working on it Varrin, Merry Christmas everyone.

[Lloyd Danforth]

1)  One of the libertarian ideals that my son has drilled into me is the importance of personal privacy.  After hanging out on this forum for a number of months, I continue to be surprised when some of you write/reveal private emails, or conversations, or real names of posters (whether they are trolls or not, I don't care).  It just seems rather hypocritical to me.
3)  If I was considering locating to another state to join folks who shared my political beliefs, I would find all this "in fighting" so immature, unprofessional, and just plain ridiculous, that I would not be able to take the FSP seriously and -- frankly -- couldn't help but think a lot of you are kooks. 

I guess I am not as into personal privacy as some "libertarians" ... so sue me.
I personally am trying to recruit as many immature revolutionaries into The Shire as possible.

For what it is worth Varrin stated that he was going to email Russell and Ian about this on the Organizers list, so, I wasn't surprised.


Oops!, I outed the O list!