Sign the First 1000 pledge!

[Russell Kanning]

Ian and Russell, I'd like to draw your attention to these two pages: http://www.pledgebank.com/last200 http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=6400.msg111366#msg111366 I've asked Pledgebank to remove the last200 page due to its fraudulent nature. I don't know if they'll do so or not, but I expect they will. Ian, I realize you didn't actually suggest fraudulently signing people up, but your "if you want to" post concerns me. Do not sign people up fraudulently and please don't encourage others to do so by showing them how. Russell, I'm embarrassed that you'd actually sign the 'last200' pledge. I can imagine a scumbag like Fisher engaging in fraudulent behavior. I'm very disappointed that you would do such a thing. If it was a joke (and I really hope it was), it wasn't in good taste. If the first 1000 pledge is not completed by the end of the month, that will be a disappointment. If it is completed fraudulently, that will be far worse. Libertarians are opposed to fraud. The end doesn't justify the means. If I become aware that the pledge has been completed fraudulently, I'll make a point of 1) informing all of the pledge signers that, while I encourage them to move, they are released from any 'obligation' to do so because of fraud, and 2) publically announcing that Russell agreed to engage in fraudulent activity, and Ian suggested ways for others to engage in fraudulent activity. Mark, I realize you are not directly involved in the above matter, however, I would like to remind you that you are expected to proceed in an honest fashion. You are also expected to make every effort to ensure your calling team does the same. The Free State Project is not interested in participating in or encouraging fraud. I do hope that you'll be able to call enough people and persuade enough people to sign that we meet our goal. However, it is far more important to me that we achieve any results (even if they're short of the goal) in an honest manner. Thank you all for your attention. V- Got Freedom? Want more? Find out how! Register today for the New Hampshire Liberty Forum http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum ================================================== Varrin Swearingen varrin@sugargroup.net freestateproject.org Liberty in our Lifetime MD-11 First Officer World Airways Drums & Percussion Daniel 12:4 ==================================================

[Russell Kanning]

Russell, On Sunday December 24 2006 05:11, you wrote: > I thought his page was a joke. It may have been a joke, but there were probably something to the tune of 70 recent fraudulent sign-ups for the First 1000 pledge, so somebody must have been doing something about it (probably him). > The page is gone, so I > can't remind myself why I thought it was funny and > signed it. It would have been funny if it didn't coincide with actual fraud in the manner described on the page (signing up lots of people for the First 1000 pledge). > Why would pledgebank take down a pledge > even if it was a joke? Because that pledge encouraged actual fraud against another pledge of theirs. > I don't understand how they work. Are they PC like so many others? I have no idea what their level of political correctness is. It seems to me, though, that committing fraud is politically correct. Politicians live on fraud, so opposing fraud can't be all that politically correct, can it? > I have also never understood the whole "only if 1,000,000 other > people will do it" mentality. My objection to that phrase is the word "only". The idea behind a pledge, though, is that it might be worth doing something if many other people will do it, but it might not be worth doing that same thing if too-few other people will do it. I would not have moved to New Hampshire if there were not a reasonable expectation of many other pro-freedom activists moving here. A pledge increases that reasonable expectation *if* it's not fraudulently filled. > I don't see how I am ruining it for the rest you again > for going along with Fisher/El Presidente'/Money > Dollars pledge. If you're signing up people for the First 1000 pledge in a bogus fashion, you're intentionally creating a false sense of expectation among people who are putting their lives on the line to move here. That's fraudulent, dishonest, and very un-friendly to freedom. Right now, there are exactly zero people 'committed' to moving to New Hampshire, but hundreds have already moved. If the First 1000 pledge 'succeeds' on fraud and then few people actually move, that destroys the credibility of any move pledge *and*, along with it, the credibility of the concept of moving for freedom. > We drove him off our forum recently by > being nice to him .... so I signed his pledge. Bill > Grennon doesn't like it when you use his real name > either. Troll tips from the most active forum > connected to the Nonviolent Revolution. Yes, driving off trolls is one thing, but the number of people who understand the fisher is a troll and that signing people up fraudulently for the First 1000 pledge is a good way to deal with that problem is very close to zero (it might be one). I know you have a good sense of humor, and I'd like to think I do, too. And if it were only a matter of ribbing Fisher, that would be one thing, but it appears actual fraud was committeed. One or more people were signing the First 1000 pledge multiple times in a short period of time using aliases. The very thing you 'agreed' to do was actually done. Of course, I have no way of knowing if you did it or not (I wouldn't be surprised if Fisher did), but encouraging fraud is not friendly to freedom. V- Got Freedom? Want more? Find out how! Register today for the New Hampshire Liberty Forum http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum ================================================== Varrin Swearingen varrin@sugargroup.net freestateproject.org Liberty in our Lifetime MD-11 First Officer World Airways Drums & Percussion Daniel 12:4 ==================================================

[Kat Kanning]

The idea that Russell would sign up people who didn't exist is rediculous.

[Russell Kanning]

I thought moneydollars pledge was funny.
Kat reminded me that the last200 pledge was to promise to sign up multiple times for the 1st1000 pledge. I thought that was funny and obviously a joke.
Some people are taking the FSP, the 1st1000, and themselves way too seriously. That is why trolls are attracted and try knock them off their high horses.

[shyfrog]

Here's what's funny:

Freestateproject.com : 824 signed the First 1000
Pledgebank.com/first1000: 794 signed the First 1000

I get a mailing from the FSP asking for money and asking people to sign the F1000
Then there's a thread stating we won't meet the First 1000 and that FSP needs to rethink strategy
I decide to call more people and get them to sign
I add the F1000 link to several of my sites
I see the numbers go up
Then I see them go down
Then I begin to wonder how many of those fraudulent signers may have been legit?
Then I think about fraud and how it doesn't discriminate
Then I wonder about the trolls
Then I wonder about the FSP itself and the possibility of internal sabotage
Then I laugh

It's all quite hilarious 

right hand? left hand? do they know each other?

[d_goddard]

I have only one question:
Russ, did you discuss with Varrin before publicly posting what appear to have been his private emails to you?

[FTL_Ian]

You've encouraged them by calling it moral to do so.

Can you cite some evidence of me doing so?

You also called people doing dishonest things trustworthy. How many dishonest things must a person do before they are no longer trustworthy?

I'm just telling you the truth about how I feel about these people.  I would have to say if their dishonest acts harmed others, they would no longer be trustworthy.  In this case all they've done is signed the pledge a few times.  They did it because they want to see the FSP succeed at the F1K.  Is it moral?  No.  Are they bad people?  Nope.

People who lie to the government are dishonest.  Is that immoral?  Does that make them untrustworthy?

To believe harm would come from a few fake names being on the F1K is absurd.  If F1K succeeds and there are 100 fraudulent signers, that means as many as 900 people will move to NH in the next two years.  Fact is, the movers will *never* know who on the F1K list actually honored their commitment.  So, it's really the concept and symbolism that matters to the signers, because they must inherently know that there's no way to verify the other signers and certainly no way to verify they all actually move.

I would say the individuals who have signed more than once believe the old cliche, "Fake it till you make it".  It may not be totally honest what they are doing, but it doesn't make them bad people in my mind, as no one is being harmed.

[varrin]

Russell,

If you're going to copy my emails to you here, at least you could format them so we could all read them correctly...  Yeesh, hard to find good help these days...



V-

[Russell Kanning]

I have only one question:
Russ, did you discuss with Varrin before publicly posting what appear to have been his private emails to you?

No
When people threaten to make public my sordid involvement with el presidente .... then I go public.
All mail sent to me should be ready for public consumption.

[Russell Kanning]

Russell,

If you're going to copy my emails to you here, at least you could format them so we could all read them correctly...  Yeesh, hard to find good help these days...



V-

Yea .... only we know where your statements end and mine begin.

[Vote Tyler Stearns]

I probably have no right to butt into this lengthy thread...I'm not a freestater, I'm a NH native and could rightly be called an independent yankee, I'm empathetic to the FSP & libertarian ideals, I don't like to fight and argue, and I should just keep my mouth shut (er, my fingers quiet)...but I'm finding these back & forth postings on the First 1000 pledge on the verge of ridiculous.  This arguing reminds me of the fights my kids have prior to being sent to their rooms until they cool down. 

A few observations from an outsider looking in, so to speak:

1)  One of the libertarian ideals that my son has drilled into me is the importance of personal privacy.  After hanging out on this forum for a number of months, I continue to be surprised when some of you write/reveal private emails, or conversations, or real names of posters (whether they are trolls or not, I don't care).  It just seems rather hypocritical to me.
2)  The whole pledge bank thing seems silly. Maybe I just don't understand it.  My son used pledge bank to try and recruit volunteers for his political campaigning.  The pledge failed to gather the arbitrary number of volunteers that he'd set.  But, everyone that had pledged and more showed up on election days to volunteer their time at the polls.  The only redeeming value of pledge bank is that it added about 10 pages worth of search results when you googled his name.
3)  If I was considering locating to another state to join folks who shared my political beliefs, I would find all this "in fighting" so immature, unprofessional, and just plain ridiculous, that I would not be able to take the FSP seriously and -- frankly -- couldn't help but think a lot of you are kooks. 

Now I know you're not nut cases (well, at least some of you that I've met), but goodness I really think I might have to send some of you to your rooms. 

Smite me all you want.  I'm living, working, and loving in New Hampshire.  You're welcome to join me -- whether it's 10 of you or 10,000 of you.  I say get out of your chairs in front of your computers and put your money where your mouth is.

And, I'm going to do just that...bye.

[Soundwave]

Agreed.

[Rocketman]

People who lie to the government are dishonest.  Is that immoral?  Does that make them untrustworthy?

I sure as hell hope you can see the difference between lying to government and lying to your fellow activists and friends. 

To believe harm would come from a few fake names being on the F1K is absurd. 

Harm has already come from this.  I hope more harm will not follow.

[Rocketman]

I probably have no right to butt into this lengthy thread...I'm not a freestater, I'm a NH native and could rightly be called an independent yankee, I'm empathetic to the FSP & libertarian ideals, I don't like to fight and argue, and I should just keep my mouth shut (er, my fingers quiet)...but I'm finding these back & forth postings on the First 1000 pledge on the verge of ridiculous.  This arguing reminds me of the fights my kids have prior to being sent to their rooms until they cool down. 

Karma to you, malevil.  You're as qualified as anybody to comment on the FSP's image, and to remind us how much credibility the movement loses when our integrity is called into question.

[Caleb]

For what it's worth, I consider it morally wrong and fraudulent to trick people into moving on false pretenses.

That having been said, I know of several people who signed up completely legitimately who were removed...Seems like the FSP is throwing the baby out with the bath water here in a knee jerk reaction to a problem.

It seems to me that at this point, the First 1000 cannot win.  No matter the results, there are going to be people who say that the result is not legitimate as a result of this fracas.

But that just leaves people right back where they started:  Do you want to join the non-violent revolution?  Those who do will come here and join.  Those who don't won't.  If someone is looking for an excuse not to move, they will find their own excuse, Varrin.