President Bush wants to open your mail!

[Tom Sawyer]

Regarding the mail...
I believe they have been "searching" first class mail for years.

I and others I know have received letters with a small hole punctured into it. We have speculated that they can put a probe into the envelop to view if "contraband" is inside.

[TEBON]

Democrats are split on this, really.  Some strategists would like to see them hold aggressive hearings and take a stab at impeachment.  If it plays out well, 2008 is a cakewalk for the dems.  Other strategists are saying they should proceed with caution until they get the presidency back in 2008. 

god help those of us that haven't yet decided NOT to pay taxes.  I'd be happier with the Democrats if they got out of my pocket and if they went ahead with repealing the drug war.  If Democrats win in 08, I will expect, finally, to get what we deserve and want.  More than that, I expect them to do whats right.  That won't happen, because Democrats ARE Republicans with a sick condition of feeling bad for those that don't deserve it.  Do you know any poor democrat politicians?  They're in it for the money just like anyone else.

Your money.  If you vote for a republican, you're voting for wars that cost tons of money.  If you vote for a democrat, you're voting for impeachment hearings and pork spending, new programs to help every untrained third world tard get a paycheck. 

There'll be impeachment hearings, for sure.  It'll be another embarassment for the country, just like it was with Clinton lying under oath.  But I'm sure the rest of the world will like us more. . . which will please the liberal types who roam the room.  Personally, I could care less what anyone else in the world thinks of me, or my country. . . it doesn't effect my life one way or another.  What does effect my life is when I get the tax bill.

[Tom Sawyer]

Personally, I could care less what anyone else in the world thinks of me, or my country. . . it doesn't effect my life one way or another.  What does effect my life is when I get the tax bill.

Nice post I just want to say that what the rest of the world thinks about the US does matter. We will pay for these mistakes in the future...

I want others to realize that the whacked out "leaders" don't speak or act for me.

Wouldn't it suck to be german and have Hitlers legacy to live down?

[mvpel]

Of course, limits.

Limits like only intercepting mail sent internationally to known terrorists who are plotting major murderous attacks on US citizens and interests?

This is not your mail or my mail we're talking about here, and that seems to be something lost in this comical BDS furor.

Sun Tzu explained this discussion thread nearly 2,500 years ago:

Thus, what enables the wise commander to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge. Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

... Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of warfare; ...

... Whether the object be to crush an enemy, to storm a territory, or to kill an enemy general, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain these.

Maybe an espionage tool such as this would be acceptable to everyone?

[Braddogg]

Maybe an espionage tool such as this would be acceptable to everyone?

As long as it's stuck on "Good Bye."

[CNHT]

Chances are that Dems aren't going to bother impeaching George W. Bush as they're happy enough being back in power, but I suppose I could be wrong on that score.
I mean... if they haven't impeached him by NOW, what could they possibly be waiting for?

Plus, impeachment doesn't mean he'll resign. Clinton was impeached but never resigned because of it.

[Braddogg]

Chances are that Dems aren't going to bother impeaching George W. Bush as they're happy enough being back in power, but I suppose I could be wrong on that score.
I mean... if they haven't impeached him by NOW, what could they possibly be waiting for?

Plus, impeachment doesn't mean he'll resign. Clinton was impeached but never resigned because of it.

I'm sure the goal would be impeachment in the House followed by a successful trial in the Senate, which would be impossible (Every Democrat senator plus 15 or 16 Republicans would have to vote to convict before Bush was removed).  It'd be a waste of time, in that respect, like the Clinton impeachment.

[KurtDaBear]

Of course, limits.

Limits like only intercepting mail sent internationally to known terrorists who are plotting major murderous attacks on US citizens and interests?

This is not your mail or my mail we're talking about here, and that seems to be something lost in this comical BDS furor.

Sun Tzu explained this discussion thread nearly 2,500 years ago:

Thus, what enables the wise commander to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge. Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.

... Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of warfare; ...

... Whether the object be to crush an enemy, to storm a territory, or to kill an enemy general, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain these.

Maybe an espionage tool such as this would be acceptable to everyone?

Sun Tzu was a military man raised in an authoritarian society.

Our society already does have limits--they're called warrants.  And if this measure were only to apply to "known terrorists," it would be fast and easy to obtain warrants to intercept their mail, tap their phones and search their properties. 

The only reason for a blanket executive order for warrantless intercepts is precisely so they can check my mail, your mail, and anyone's mail at any time without any need for legal justification or oversight.

[eques]

Chances are that Dems aren't going to bother impeaching George W. Bush as they're happy enough being back in power, but I suppose I could be wrong on that score.
I mean... if they haven't impeached him by NOW, what could they possibly be waiting for?

Plus, impeachment doesn't mean he'll resign. Clinton was impeached but never resigned because of it.

Was there actually anybody who was impeached and subsequently resigned?

Nixon wasn't ever impeached--he resigned (and was pardoned by Ford) before impeachment and criminal proceedings could be brought against him.

If Bush is impeached, it will have to be in order to levy criminal charges against him.  What those charges would be exactly, I don't know... I know that Bush has done plenty of unconstitutional things, but that sort of thing has been going on for the past 200 years.

So, I say, if they don't have anything on him now, what in the world are they waiting for?

I highly doubt that they'll impeach Bush.

[CNHT]

Was there actually anybody who was impeached and subsequently resigned?

Nixon knew he likely would have been so he resigned to avoid all the mess and spare us the expense. Clinton had no such intentions of leaving for any reason, regardless of how badly he disgraced the office of the presidency or how much money he cost the taxpayers.

[TEBON]

Personally, I could care less what anyone else in the world thinks of me, or my country. . . it doesn't effect my life one way or another.  What does effect my life is when I get the tax bill.

Nice post I just want to say that what the rest of the world thinks about the US does matter. We will pay for these mistakes in the future...

I want others to realize that the whacked out "leaders" don't speak or act for me.

Wouldn't it suck to be german and have Hitlers legacy to live down?

agreed, what's the most effective way not to get involved with any of these other wackjobs?  Isolation.  Feed your family before you feed the world.  Police your own house before you police everyone else's.  We have our own starving, we have our own jobless.  We don't want or need anyone else's bs.  Ooh I'm going to say it, isolationism. . . you keep your S$IT to yourself. . . . . . no one agrees with me, no one else can possibly see how it can work. . . . could we get attacked?  Sure, we did at Pearl Harbor.  But we weren't true isolationists then. 

I just disagree, I really really just don't care what ANY other country thinks of mine.  Cause I can see the country and know the people. . . if they want to blame their problems on me, they can go ahead.  Because their whines will fall on deaf ears.  I will go on with my life, I've learned to fix my own problems before I worry about anyone else's.

applaud roger

[error]

Wait, there are liberals on this forum?!

[eques]

Wait, there are liberals on this forum?!

I'm a "liberal" only in the sense that I think the status quo needs to go!

Any other colloquial definition of "liberal" fails to apply, so I don't use that term.

[Rocketman]

Of course, limits.

Limits like only intercepting mail sent internationally to known terrorists who are plotting major murderous attacks on US citizens and interests?

This is not your mail or my mail we're talking about here, and that seems to be something lost in this comical BDS furor.

Who defines and enforces these "limits"?

Peace activists such as myself were targets of government surveillance during the Vietnam era, and we will be targets as long as government insists on its power to wage wars of aggression.

[Spencer]

Chances are that Dems aren't going to bother impeaching George W. Bush as they're happy enough being back in power, but I suppose I could be wrong on that score.
I mean... if they haven't impeached him by NOW, what could they possibly be waiting for?

Plus, impeachment doesn't mean he'll resign. Clinton was impeached but never resigned because of it.

Was there actually anybody who was impeached and subsequently resigned?

Nixon wasn't ever impeached--he resigned (and was pardoned by Ford) before impeachment and criminal proceedings could be brought against him.

If Bush is impeached, it will have to be in order to levy criminal charges against him.  What those charges would be exactly, I don't know... I know that Bush has done plenty of unconstitutional things, but that sort of thing has been going on for the past 200 years.

So, I say, if they don't have anything on him now, what in the world are they waiting for?

I highly doubt that they'll impeach Bush.

Don't forget President Andrew Johnson, who was impeached by the House, and acquitted in the Senate (it came down to one vote).

During WWII, including prior to the declaration of war by Congress, the "neutral" U.S. helped Britain by allowing Britain to inspect and open all international mail coming into and leaving the U.S.  I believe that the main place where the searches were handled was Bermuda. 

Regardless, the first "official" wholesale search of all mail during WWII occurred when FDR issued Executive Order 8985 in December 1941, establishing the Office of Censorship, headed up by the then-general manager of the Associated Press.