But seriously . . . atheism?

[Rocketman]

But then again, a transcendent God is not necessarily an omnipotent one. 

I think you might be onto something there.  Wish I had leisure time to study Whitehead again -- the chats my Process Philosophy class had about Whitehead's God concept interested me even as a (then) atheist.  Now that I've read a little more about deism, transcendentalism, etc. I might be able to connect a few more dots with Whiteheadian metaphysics.

But freedom-fighting is somehow more fun and rewarding than scholarship these days...

[ladyattis]

Actually, I think I've found a way to refute Whitehead, but I forgot exactly how. >_< Especially since I got my own metaphysics and etc to correlate with my theory of mind as well.  ??? ??? ??? ???

-- Bridget

[MaineShark]

If you walk on the floor without having crawled under it to inspect the joists, beams and boards; it's a belief based on faith, not fact.  That's where the faith comes in.

No, that's belief based on credible evidence.  Faith is belief without credible evidence.  It is evident to me that the overwhelming majority of floors are sound.  It is evident to me that defects in a structure are often visible on the surface, as is evidence of general neglect.  It is evident to me that observation of someone walking upon a given floor without incident further reinforces the likelyhood of that floor being sound.  It is evident to me that the rules of probability give me extraordinary odds of safely traversing any given floor that meets the prior standards.

That is not faith.  That is belief.  I believe that, if I throw a rock, it will fall down eventually.  I believe that because I have done it many times and it always happened, and because I understand the theories of gravitation.  There is no faith involved; it will not destroy me if someone demonstrates a set of conditions under which my previous experience would not hold (eg, if I threw a rock hard enough to propel it into orbit, it would not fall back down).

I am an a - theist in that I'm against the theists because they are claiming things they cannot prove.  It is not incumbent upon me to prove anything.  And as I said earlier, you cannot prove a negative. 

But if this were a civil trial, and I had to arrive at a verdict based on a "preponderance of evidence," it would come down on the side of no god.  That's not a matter of faith in my belief; it's a lack of faith in the plaintiffs' case.  I'm merely defending myself against the fraud they seek to perpetrate.

If you are an atheist, then you are making a positive assertion that you know, for a fact, that there is no deity of any sort.  You are not simply saying "I don't know."  Someone who says "I don't know whether or not there is a deity of some sort," regardless of whether that person leans a particular way in his belief is an agnostic.

I don't believe that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God exists, as described in the holy books of those religions, but I will not assert that I know for a fact that He doesn't.  I don't know any such thing.

Atheists and theists operate on faith.  Agnostics do not.

Joe

[KurtDaBear]

If you are an atheist, then you are making a positive assertion that you know, for a fact, that there is no deity of any sort.  You are not simply saying "I don't know."  Someone who says "I don't know whether or not there is a deity of some sort," regardless of whether that person leans a particular way in his belief is an agnostic.

I don't believe that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God exists, as described in the holy books of those religions, but I will not assert that I know for a fact that He doesn't.  I don't know any such thing.

Atheists and theists operate on faith.  Agnostics do not.

Joe

Thank you for clarifying a point for me that I had never really thought much about.  My atheism is based on faith.  After reviewing all the available evidence, I have enough faith in my judgment to decide that there is no god, but as you say, it is a matter of faith.

You are, however, still wrong about the floor, especially as someone who has had one collapse under him.  I used to have the same "belief" in double-yellow lines on the highway--until a drunk came across one and hit me.  After that I have never had any faith in the double-yellow line or which side of it oncoming headlights are on.

[MaineShark]

You are, however, still wrong about the floor, especially as someone who has had one collapse under him.  I used to have the same "belief" in double-yellow lines on the highway--until a drunk came across one and hit me.  After that I have never had any faith in the double-yellow line or which side of it oncoming headlights are on.

No, I'm not.

Faith is an unreasoned belief in something.  It is belief without evidence.

My belief that a given floor will support me is based on solid evidence.  It is extraordinarily probable that a given, sound-looking floor will support my weight.  It is a workable theory on which to base day-to-day action.  Similarly, my disbelief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is a workable theory, based on observable evidence.

Belief that no car will cross the center of a given road is not reasonable.  Anyone who has spent appreciable time observing drivers will notice a large fraction who do not pay any attention to staying in the appropriate lanes.

Disbelief in any particular deity can be a workable theory, given a comparison between the supposed attributes of that deity and the observable universe, leading one to rule the existence of that particular deity as highly improbable.  Disbelief in all deities cannot be based on probability, because the possible attributes of the candidates is unknown, so one cannot compare them to the observable universe.

Reasoned belief (or disbelief) is not the same as faith.

Joe

[KurtDaBear]

Reasoned belief (or disbelief) is not the same as faith.

Joe

Well, good; I guess then we can at least agree on my reasoned disbelief.

[MaineShark]

Reasoned belief (or disbelief) is not the same as faith.

Well, good; I guess then we can at least agree on my reasoned disbelief.

Reasoned disbelief in what?

You can't "reasonably" disbelieve in all deities, because you don't have the data from which to reason.

So what are you saying you "reasonably" disbelieve in?

Joe

[KurtDaBear]

Reasoned belief (or disbelief) is not the same as faith.

Well, good; I guess then we can at least agree on my reasoned disbelief.

Reasoned disbelief in what?

You can't "reasonably" disbelieve in all deities, because you don't have the data from which to reason.

So what are you saying you "reasonably" disbelieve in?

Joe

How do you know what data I have?

[MaineShark]

Reasoned disbelief in what?

You can't "reasonably" disbelieve in all deities, because you don't have the data from which to reason.

So what are you saying you "reasonably" disbelieve in?

How do you know what data I have?

I don't.  I never said I did.

What I do know is what data you don't have.  You don't have data that says no deity exists, because such data is logically impossible.

Joe

[Caleb]

round and round we go ...

where it ends nobody knows. 

[MaineShark]

round and round we go ...

where it ends nobody knows. 

I like logic

I just read Niven's proof of why time travel (backwards) won't exist, which I found amusing.

Quick-and-dirty version:

Given: the purpose of time travel into the past is to change something to make the universe more to one's liking.

Therefore: if time travel is possible, it will be used.  Eventually, any who are capable of time travel will have made all the changes they want, and no one will have any reason to develop time travel, so it will never be created.

Joe

[Amethyste]

You know, I am reading a lot on the forums - I just don't really post. But I had to say something about the subject...

Perhaps God has put on the planet people and situations to "challenge" people in their life learning so that they may learn about compassion and acceptance. I was brought up in a family with Christian beliefs, and many of them were tolerance and acceptance of others. I have  read this thread that is a never ending circle of opinions, beliefs and dis-beliefs... As long as we are not forcing down the throat of others our own beliefs, I think we can learn about love. A love that was given to us to test. A test that is a life long journey. A test that goes beyond the understood and possible. Love has many facets, and is more than just from books, old or new testaments... It is in what you do for others, and not for what you want others do for you. If they believe in something else than what you believe in, so be it. Listen to what they say and accept the differences. Actually, you should embrace them as it will strengthen your own chosen path.

I think it is a beautiful thing that we are all different: different gender, religion, age, likes and dislikes...
Just look at the birth of Libertarians... its is not that different from religions in my opinion. There are so many political parties in this world, but somehow, you guys all found each other. Somehow, this party suited you for one reason or another. It has filled something within your beliefs. Just the same way as religion(s) do(es) for people. Instead of working against each other, you should all unite and practice tolerance and acceptance. I think it would make this world a much greater place to live in. We are not here to judge other people, as we do not have the power to do this in my opinion as we cannot feel what another human being is feeling since we are limited to the confinement of our own physical state, but I think we can all exercise understanding of individuality and that diversity is a beautiful thing.

If you are a true Messenger of God, go spread your love onto others that are in need - without forcing them to believe in what you believe in. Trust that you are doing the right thing without any pretense or thinking that they are living in the wrong... Love them unconditionally with the hope that they find their way through out this life and that they can also in return do the same as you did for them.

I know this argument is NOT a scientific or VALID/concrete one, but it is what it is and I needed to say it.
I respect every one of you - as I think some of you are SUPER brave to post your visions, this is mine and I am sticking to it

Good evening to you all.

[Caleb]

is there a particular reason you came back here just to hound him?

Or do you just like reopening wounds?

[Amethyste]

is there a particular reason you came back here just to hound him?

Or do you just like reopening wounds?

I have an opinion and I have the freedom ( of all on this forum, isn't this a place where freedom is at heart? ) to express myself. I have been silent for over 1 year, I have let time go by and I think I am allowed to express my feelings and thoughts, as you all do. I don't think I have been rude in my post, my intent was to mention that we all are humans and it is in our best interest to be tolerant and accepting of others even if the other people are not believing in the same things we do -. Nothing more and nothing less.

Why do you even say I like to re-open wounds? By this sentence, it seems like I am the one who abandoned my relationship and perhaps, your view is highly biased on one version of a certain story, whatever it is, I am not here to justify anything in your eyes. I have ALSO moved to NH in 2004, indirectly b/c because of the FSP, so I feel I belong to this forum just as much as anyone here. I have met very nice and caring people from the FSP and I can participate here if I wish - if no one agrees to that, then I think that one moderator should just ban me. but that would be highly unethical since I have not crossed any line or have been rude to anyone here. I have given UP a lot to move to NH, I have mourned and I have been hurt too. People seem to forget that its not a one way street. I am interested into what is going on, even though I don't participate actively, I still read.

I respect people's opinions and I appreciate the conversations here. I have nothing against anyone and I hope you can be tolerant and accepting enough to welcome me here.

I am sorry if my post has been seen as an attack - it surely was not my intention. It was just a post coming from the heart since I have no "scientific" proof of the existence of God, but I believe that all the answers of the "why we are here" are right inside of us. I hope you can accept this post and know that I am not here to raise problems - but to just add my thought to this already lengthy thread.

[Amethyste]

oh... and I wanted to add - I can't find who quoted this in the thread, but the poster said that "fasting weakens the body and the mind".

This statement cannot be more further than the truth. Michael has introduced me to fasting last year ( even though I fasted before, I completely forgot how well it make you feel ), I just finished a 30 day water fast and I feel in control of my life and all that is going around me.

Fasting not only does a good cleansing inside of your body but can really cure ailments that have bothered you for a long time. I severely sprained my ankle 4 months ago due to a very bad fall, to the point that walking was extremely painful. After my 30 day fast, my ankle is brand new. All the muscles and tendons have healed and I can walk now without pain. It was a miracle. The miracle of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health can be found in fasting.

You can go without food for a loooooooooooooong time. You don't need much food to survive as an adult. But you have to make sure you do eat a good balanced diet in between fasts to make sure you get the nutrients needed for your body. That's hard(er) since it requires to change eating habits, but if health is on your top priority, you'll be able to live an ageless life. Where you are 80 years old and run marathons and surf in the ocean. Life has no limit, we are the one who destroys our bodies with the life we are living now.