Do we need infiltrators?

[Quantrill]

I'd rather work from the other direction:
paying or enticing the pro-government people to act on the behalf of freedom.

If you take a naturally moral and tolerant freedom-lover then ask them to climb the "slime ladder", it makes them untrustworthy and ambivilent.

I say make the other guys turn into two-faced rats, not us.

I can see this point of view.  But should we really have to pay or entice the pro-government people to act on behalf of freedom?  To me it makes more sense to have people that don't need to be bribed or coerced in some fashion to work toward freedom.  I guess what I'm trying to say is:  if we are actively trying to elect PORCs to state offices (a la Joel Winters) then why would we not be happy with folks like KBCraig and Rocketman?  Isn't that a little hypocritical? 

And I don't think it necessarily has to be done in secret, but in certain circumstances that would be beneficial.  In one of her books Claire Wolf mentions how nice it would be to have someone in data entry "accidentally" make a few mistakes while keying in your personal info (maybe medical records, police records, IRS data, etc...).  There was a thread awhile back about the DMV in NH and how they're supposed to delete your picture from the system but this seems to rarely be done.  Certainly having a PORC at the DMV would help in regards to privacy.  There are many things that we can do to help promote freedom and privacy from even non-government jobs. 

I think it's safe to say that 99.9% of us are not exactly fond of the current state of public education.  But I doubt any on here would deny the fact that WE (the FSP) could be more productive by having freedom-lovers in the education system.  One of my PolySci professors in college seemed open-minded so I gave him a pamphlet from FIJA and had a brief discussion with him.  I doubt he brought it up with any classes after that but it is possible.  Had this guy been a PORC I can guarantee he would be discussing the role of juries and how they're allowed to use their consciences and don't have to strictly follow the law, especially if they believe the law is unjust.  Fully-Informed juries would go a long way to helping out people like Ed Brown.

So maybe the use of the word "infiltrator" wasn't appropriate, though I still think in certain circumstances discretion is necessary...

[Michael Fisher]

Infiltration is also unnecessary. A good investigative journalist can extract almost any necessary information from any institution.

[KurtDaBear]

If you take a naturally moral and tolerant freedom-lover then ask them to climb the "slime ladder", it makes them untrustworthy and ambivilent.

I say make the other guys turn into two-faced rats, not us.

I don't think people of principle can be turned into "two-faced rats" by virtue of their occupations.  That's why we so often hear about whistle-blowers being threatened, demoted, fired, etc.  Also, for a generation or two (till everyone gets the message), even a liberatarian society would need people to help protect the flock. 

A large part of the problem people have with police (including many police officers) is the pervasive influence of the federal government and its propaganda machine in setting terms of the debate via language and word usage.

For instance, most people find it amusing when a crime broadcast refers to a house, a garden shed, and a detached garage as a "compound" and repeatedly refers to the "perpetrator" by his full first, middle and last names.  Those are terms fed to the media by "law enforcement" officials.  But how many think of the term "law enforcement officer" as strange?  We're pretty well conditioned to that.

When did the policeman, town watchman, or constable become (in FedSpeak) a "law enforcement officer?"  What happened to the "peace officer" of the Old West, whose job was, literally, to keep the peace, not to ruthlessly and mercilessly enforce 2,611 municipal ordinances, smashing all those who might get in his way?

We need to help society find its way and not dump on our brothers and sisters who happen to find employment in the public sector.  Some of those folks in the cars that say "To Protect and Serve" on the doors really believe it.

[KBCraig]

Some of those folks in the cars that say "To Protect and Serve" on the doors really believe it.

One of those is a friend of mine, named Steve Rothstein. He's been a big-city cop, found he preferred life as a small town cop, and then took a job as director of a statewide agency's police academy. He's a self-proclaimed small-l libertarian, and not shy about sharing that (like me, he has posted online for years under his real name). He's exactly the kind of guy you want instilling the right mindset in new peace officers.

In a discussion over on texaschlforum.com, regarding whether Texas should adopt open carry (and whether it should be licensed or unlicensed), here's what he had to say:

I guess I am just a radical, but I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment. I strongly support repeal of Chapter 46 of the Penal Code altogether.

Criminals will carry anyway and honest law abiding people are no threat.

Texas PC46 contains all the laws against carrying weapons, whether handguns without a license, clubs, "illegal knives", etc. He's a cop, and he wants to eliminate all laws that restrict carrying weapons.

When I posted the Sigarms job opening on that forum, he replied, "Maybe I can get to NH sooner than I thought."

He's not an FSP signer (yet), but I'm pretty sure he would fit in good with this crowd.



Kevin

[TackleTheWorld]

I say make the other guys turn into two-faced rats, not us.
I don't think people of principle can be turned into "two-faced rats" by virtue of their occupations. 

Question:  If you say X is sacred, moral, or necessary - then act to hinder X - aren't you a two-faced rat?

[Russell Kanning]

I guess what I'm trying to say is:  if we are actively trying to elect PORCs to state offices (a la Joel Winters) then why would we not be happy with folks like KBCraig and Rocketman?  Isn't that a little hypocritical? 

I must not be part of your "we".

[KurtDaBear]

I say make the other guys turn into two-faced rats, not us.
I don't think people of principle can be turned into "two-faced rats" by virtue of their occupations. 

Question:  If you say X is sacred, moral, or necessary - then act to hinder X - aren't you a two-faced rat?

Yes, but what does that have to do with someone's occupation if, when X hits the fan, the person chooses X over occupation?

[Quantrill]

Infiltration is also unnecessary. A good investigative journalist can extract almost any necessary information from any institution.

You are correct in that infiltration is not necessary to extract information.  We're talking about people in offices that can change the way things are done.   The police station will not dissapear anytime soon.  Would you rather have someone like KBCraig running it or someone who does not care about the Constitution, your rights or your privacy?

I must not be part of your "we".

No.  You don't vote, do you?


I really am surprised at the responses to this.  I honestly thought the majority of people would share my line of thinking, and not that this thread would be in the Endless debate and Whining forum.  I don't see how anyone who values freedom and is in a position of power would be considered a "two-faced rat". 

So what is the purpose of the FSP?  I thought the plan was to elect representatives to get things changed and bring back lost freedoms.  Why would this movement not carry over to other government jobs? 

Russell, what is your opinion on how to affect change in NH?  I'm not trying to belittle, just trying to understand.  There's a strong possibility I'll be making the move in about 6 months.  Will I be wasting my time by writing letters to politicians, reading bills and working to get freedom-lovers into office?

[FTL_Ian]

So what is the purpose of the FSP?

To move Liberty lovers to NH.  What they do here is up to them.

Will I be wasting my time by writing letters to politicians, reading bills and working to get freedom-lovers into office?

No, there are lots of FSPers who are political.  They're just outnumbered on this forum.  You'll find many of them in the "New Hampshire Politics" subforum here.

[KBCraig]

Will I be wasting my time by writing letters to politicians, reading bills and working to get freedom-lovers into office?

No, there are lots of FSPers who are political.  They're just outnumbered on this forum.  You'll find many of them in the "New Hampshire Politics" subforum here.

And this time of year, they're very very busy doing their brand of freedom activism.

[FTL_Ian]

And this time of year, they're very very busy doing their brand of freedom activism.

Yeah, a bunch of them are reading proposed laws.  Ick.  Just shows there's something for everyone.

[error]

I've had conversations with Ian, Dave and some other folks about this.

It seems to me that we need both types of people: those who are politically active, and those who practice civil disobedience, to be most effective in restoring liberty. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to do one, the other, or both, it's fine with me.

It also seems to me that if people practicing both types of activism work in concert, our efforts to restore liberty will be most effective most quickly.

With respect to "infiltrators" I would say that, should such people retain their principles, they could be said to be practicing both types of activism at the same time. No, they are not strictly necessary, but they could be quite useful. And it's not just about "extracting information" but about bending an entire bureaucracy toward liberty (which is to say collapse?) from within.

Just some thoughts. Working in the bureaucracy is definitely still not for me.

[Braddogg]

I hear ya, Quantrill.  I keep going back and forth.  Part of my ambivalence is selfishness: do I want to get wrapped up as a bureaucrat's life?  Hell no!  It'd drive me crazy.  I've thought about being a high school US History teacher.  If I worked directly for the government, though, I don't know if I'd be able to forget that my meals were paid with stolen money.  That's what gets me: If I didn't take the job, someone else would have, but if enough people didn't take the job, then it would disappear.  But what are the odds of that happening?  As for the political angle, I spent a day at the state house a few weeks ago, and I just got all sorts of uncomfortable in the committee hearing room.  The amount of aggression (blatent and passive) made me a little sick to my stomach.

[error]

As for the political angle, I spent a day at the state house a few weeks ago, and I just got all sorts of uncomfortable in the committee hearing room.  The amount of aggression (blatent and passive) made me a little sick to my stomach.

You just gave me an idea. We could pass out barf bags to people entering the State House, for people who get sick at all these laws.

[eques]

As for the political angle, I spent a day at the state house a few weeks ago, and I just got all sorts of uncomfortable in the committee hearing room.  The amount of aggression (blatent and passive) made me a little sick to my stomach.

You just gave me an idea. We could pass out barf bags to people entering the State House, for people who get sick at all these laws.

You could have mottos on the side:

"Puke for Liberty!"
"Barf for Freedom!"
"Retch Against the State!"
"Vomit for Our Rights!"