Ouchie on gas prices lately

[Lloyd Danforth]

The EV pusher is very kool!

[Russell Kanning]

These guys seem to want to use the electric motor primarily .... how does that come out $/mile

[Pat McCotter]

Primarily EV or primarily gas/diesel depends on where you do most of your driving.

Around town with some long distance - EV is best as the distance is about 30 miles before recharge required. (I know there are some out there that will go farther but we're talking lots more money.) The EV is best here with a detachable trailer for either recharging or as a pusher. You don't want to pull the weight of the motor/generator around town with the electric motor as this would drain the batteries faster.

Mostly distance driving - the gas/diesel with electric assist would be best. For commercial vehicles you have Toyota with an electric motor that can move the car from a stop without the engine. Honda requires the engine but uses the motor as an assist. I don't know what Ford has done with the Explorer.

There are a couple different configurations you can have - parallel or serial gas/electric or diesel/electric.

Parallel is what the pusher is and the Attack that Russ found. One axle has the electric motor, the other (or the trailer axle) has the engine. You can run one or the other or both or you could run the engine and use the motor as a generator to charge the batteries. The throttle setup for this seems to be a bit complicated. The pusher guy kept it simple when he put the automatic tranny in the pusher and the throttle set while driving with the electric throttle doing the speed changes.

Serial would involve an engine run generator charging the batteries and an electric motor running the axle.

The Toyota and Honda can probably be seen as serial/parallel - the electric motor and engine are in the same drive train. The electric motor assists the engine or the engine turns the motor to charge the batteries; all depending on the charge of the batteries and the demands of twe car for power.

[Russell Kanning]

Is it good to run around town an electric you have to charge .... does it cost more than gas?

[Pat McCotter]

I don't know the cost. I haven't tried this and don't have direct experience from anyone.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Most of the electricity you would charge your EV batteries is probably produced with less polution than either gas/diesel engines.
In some areas  where Kilowatt hour charges are cheaper at night, you could charge it at night.

[Russell Kanning]

yea if we had cheap nuke electricity it would make even more sense

[Pat McCotter]

I have a book available for anyone who wants to read it:

The Health Hazards of NOT Going Nuclear

The author compares 1000MW power plants of different technologies "from the ground to the outlet" and how they affect the health of the people involved.

[KBCraig]

Hybrid technology isn't new. Railroads have been using diesel-electrics almost exclusively for almost 60 years. Primary drive ("traction motors") are electric, with diesel generators providing the electricity. This is by far the most efficient way of getting power to the rails, while avoiding a solid mechanical linkage (very risky when you've got a million tons behind you, just waiting to snap something).

My random thoughts about electric cars, in no particular order:

- There's no such thing as "zero emission", only "displaced pollution". Even if an all-electric is charged from PV, hydro, or nuclear, the environmental impact of manufacturing (and disposal) of PV cells, batteries, dam impoundment, or nuclear waste is hardly "zero".

- Electric final drive will probably prevail, with dynamic (regenerative) braking, and mechanical back-up braking.

- The generator engines, be they powered by gasoline, diesel, CNG/LPG, hydrogen, or waste oil, will be designed to run very efficiently in a narrow power band, which would be unsuitable for directly driving the wheels.

- Battery banks will be minimal.

- Photovoltaics, even for trickle charging, probably won't provide a justifiable return on cost.

- Individual motors at all four corners, as part of the wheel/hub assembly, probably won't work. They'd make the unsprung weight too high. I expect to see one motor in front, another in back, driving the wheels through half-shafts similar to current systems.

Kevin

[Russell Kanning]

I like the way you think

[CNHT]

Will be $3.00 soon. Just think it was $2.00 in April when this thread was started.

[polyanarch]

Hybrid technology isn't new. Railroads have been using diesel-electrics almost exclusively for almost 60 years. Primary drive ("traction motors") are electric, with diesel generators providing the electricity. This is by far the most efficient way of getting power to the rails, while avoiding a solid mechanical linkage (very risky when you've got a million tons behind you, just waiting to snap something).

My random thoughts about electric cars, in no particular order:

<snip>

- Battery banks will be minimal.

- Photovoltaics, even for trickle charging, probably won't provide a justifiable return on cost.

- Individual motors at all four corners, as part of the wheel/hub assembly, probably won't work. They'd make the unsprung weight too high. I expect to see one motor in front, another in back, driving the wheels through half-shafts similar to current systems.

Kevin

I agree with everything except for the last statement and the one about battery banks being minimal.

Individual wheel hub motor-brakes will be eventually nearly as light as current brake systems.  Unsprung weight is a big deal but not that  big of a deal on a passenger car as it is on an off-road vehicle.

I think the benefits of using these hub motor-brakes will so outweigh the costs that when they are manufactured in super-high volumes they will be cheap, light and interchangeable to just about any passenger light car on the road.  Imagine if all you needed for the car was a coaster that steered and had spindles where 4 universal hub-brake motors could be bolted on and an engine compartment that could take a universal hybrid turbine generator the size of a milk-crate and a battery pack the size of a large radiator that could be modular and be used in any coaster car!

The benefits of such a modular system -mass produced to fit any car would be enormous!

These motor-brakes could be made.  Have you seen how light and powerful the new generation of battery drills are?  You would only really need about 20HP to each wheel to move a light car with enough authority to maintain current roads and traffic methods.  I think that is doable if they can build them with modern high-tech materials and production methods so that they can withstand the heat buildup.

We already have the battery technology in the current hybrids to do this.

The compact turbine/generator is already in the works.  The technology is there -it just needs to come down in price.

A vehicle that costs about what we are used to paying for a new car and performs almost as well as what we are used to will be here when gas prices reach $10/gallon.  You can count on that.

Make mine a plug-in too.   You could charge the batteries when you are at home between small trips and never have to run the turbine generator unless you took a trip of over 30 miles total.  Then you would run on the turbine to generate the power to charge the batteries to about half-full and keep it there until the next time you could plug in.  That would save even more fuel and pollution as the large power plant is easier to keep an eye on as a pollution source than many million private vehicles all over the place that might get out of tune and start polluting more than they were designed to on paper.

Jim

[polyanarch]

Oh,

and another thing I wanted to say was that I think the first use of turbine-generators running a huge electric pusher motor will not be on passenger vehicles but instead on Tractor-trailers.

I don't think individual wheelhub motor-brakes will be used here because of the sheer size and power needed but instead conventional driveshafts and differentials will be hooked to a huge motor-brake.  The engine will be a high-power turbine generator like they have in a locomotive with just enough batteries to help them up hills/mountains so that the generator doesn't need to be too big and can be more efficient at normal cruising speed.

Modern Diesel tractors have pushed the limits of fuel efficiency at about 6MPG on the long-haul tractor rigs. 

I think that a large company like WalMart who owns literally a half-million semi's will eventually embrace this technology because in the long run the unit cost of the tractors will be decreased and they will last much longer and be easier to repair maintain.  No transmission to worry about -just some serious cables between the generator and motor.

The fuel savings will be substantial and the great many miles these rigs put over the road over their lifetime that will add up to a lot of money saved for the industry. 

The reason why I say WalMart is because if you have noticed.  There is always as least one WalMart truck in sight whenever you are on the interstate system if you can see any at all.  Count them the next time you are on the road.

You will see these vehicles made when diesel fuel hits $5/gallon.  Count on it.  They will have to.  -or figure out something else that will allow them to pull the same loads across the country cheaper...

Jim

[DC]

You will see these vehicles made when diesel fuel hits $5/gallon.  Count on it.  They will have to.  -or figure out something else that will allow them to pull the same loads across the country cheaper...

Unless the government gets in the way. Hawaii is putting in price controles. Hello gas lines.

[Russell Kanning]

Unless the government gets in the way. Hawaii is putting in price controles. Hello gas lines.

oh no