"Why I Fled George Bush's War"

[Friday]

Now, Now, Friday, KB is entitled to be a skeptic...

a quick google found this:
http://rokdrop.com/2007/03/24/useful-idiot-joshua-key/

so grain of salt and all that jazz.

With all due respect to dip-chawin' Okies who pop out three kids by age 20 and see Army enlistment as a promising career opportunity...  I thought it went without saying that the guy isn't the brightest bulb in the lamp? 

KBCraig compared him to a guy who lied about serving time in Iraq at all, or even completing basic training.  I argued, and still do, that a major publisher wouldn't be putting out a book by the guy without making one or two phone calls to confirm that he did, in fact, serve active duty in Iraq.  Everything else he says is open to interpretation, just like every other word out of every person's mouth.  Believe, or not, as you wish.

[Kat Kanning]

He was smart enough to not go back.

[EJinCT]

Though his descriptions about how raids are conducted sound pretty reasonable- that's only a step below the paramilitary police raids we have here in the US.

Skepticism is good- there are plenty of people out there who are willing to twist and distort the truth to further their political views, including plenty of people trying to further political views we agree with. You should apply critical reasoning to everything and everyone, especially people who are on "your side". I'm not just talking about this guy, I mean in general.

As for this specific guy's story- I wouldn't be too surprised to find that he's exaggerated a bit. I'm sure he's had to fight to stay in Canada, so he has every motivation to do so. Just like Ed Brown and his... eccentricities, I agree this guy is doing the right thing by refusing to participate in the war, but that doesn't mean his word is the gospel truth.

+1 My initial impression was it was an exaggerated piece of antiwar propaganda. I never made it past Boot (Thankfully) but even I could describe a Search & Detain maneuver. It wouldn't surprise me if it is wholly factual though.

This is one topic I will try to keep my opinion to myself,  as I'm not opposed to war in general, but intensely concerned about why and how it is carried out. In that regard, the latest schism we have found ourselves embroiled in is wholly suspect.

I try not to be skeptical, but discerning. 

[Kat Kanning]

Was just listening to this from Wendy McElroy's site:

War is the Health of the State

[SethCohn]

I argued, and still do, that a major publisher wouldn't be putting out a book by the guy without making one or two phone calls to confirm that he did, in fact, serve active duty in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces

The publishers of the novel, Doubleday and Anchor Books, initially stood by Frey. But further examination of the evidence eventually caused the publishers to alter their stances. They released a statement noting, "When the Smoking Gun report appeared, our first response, given that we were still learning the facts of the matter, was to support our author. Since then, we have questioned him about the allegations and have sadly come to the realization that a number of facts have been altered and incidents embellished." [3] As a consequence, the publishers decided to include a publisher's note and an author's note from Frey as disclaimers to be included in future publications. According to the source at the company, there had been some disagreement among editors at the publishing house about Mr. Frey's authenticity, but the early dissenters had been silenced by the book's success, both pre- and post-Oprah.[13].

Random House issued a statement regarding the controversy. It noted that future editions of the book would contain notes from both the publisher and Frey on the text, as well as prominent notations on the cover and on their website about the additions. On September 12, 2006, Frey and publisher Random House, Inc. reached a tentative legal settlement, where readers who felt that they had been defrauded by Frey's "A Million Little Pieces" would be offered a refund. In order to receive the refund, customers must submit a proof of purchase, pieces of the book itself (page 163 from the hard cover or the front cover from the paperback), and complete a sworn statement indicating that they purchased the book under the assumption that it was a memoir.

[Friday]

I argued, and still do, that a major publisher wouldn't be putting out a book by the guy without making one or two phone calls to confirm that he did, in fact, serve active duty in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces

The publishers of the novel, Doubleday and Anchor Books, initially stood by Frey. But further examination of the evidence eventually caused the publishers to alter their stances. They released a statement noting, "When the Smoking Gun report appeared, our first response, given that we were still learning the facts of the matter, was to support our author. Since then, we have questioned him about the allegations and have sadly come to the realization that a number of facts have been altered and incidents embellished." [3] As a consequence, the publishers decided to include a publisher's note and an author's note from Frey as disclaimers to be included in future publications. According to the source at the company, there had been some disagreement among editors at the publishing house about Mr. Frey's authenticity, but the early dissenters had been silenced by the book's success, both pre- and post-Oprah.[13].

Random House issued a statement regarding the controversy. It noted that future editions of the book would contain notes from both the publisher and Frey on the text, as well as prominent notations on the cover and on their website about the additions. On September 12, 2006, Frey and publisher Random House, Inc. reached a tentative legal settlement, where readers who felt that they had been defrauded by Frey's "A Million Little Pieces" would be offered a refund. In order to receive the refund, customers must submit a proof of purchase, pieces of the book itself (page 163 from the hard cover or the front cover from the paperback), and complete a sworn statement indicating that they purchased the book under the assumption that it was a memoir.

Proving my point again, Seth.  That incident is exactly why I made the original statement.  Publishers are much more on their guard now.

Bored now.

[SethCohn]

Don't get me wrong: I'm against the war, but the critics of this book fall into 2 categories: those who berate him for his 'cowardice' and don't criticize the facts, and those who point out the factual issues.

Most of the military people posting comments (such as on Amazon), point out that the facts don't fit, or jibe with their own experiences, etc.  Someone is lying.  Either it's Key, or it's all of the others.  Occam's razor.

The left has embraced Key as a example of anti-war sentiment from the man on the ground, listing atrocities/etc... doesn't mean he's a good example.  If he is lying, that damages the anti-war cause far worse.

[KBCraig]

I argued, and still do, that a major publisher wouldn't be putting out a book by the guy without making one or two phone calls to confirm that he did, in fact, serve active duty in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Little_Pieces

The publishers of the novel, Doubleday and Anchor Books, initially stood by Frey. But further examination of the evidence eventually caused the publishers to alter their stances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_America:_The_Origins_of_a_National_Gun_Culture

Shortly after the book's release, a number of questions arose when some critics began finding what they said were an extraordinary number of errors. Some scholars outside universities attacked Prof. Bellesiles's honesty, accusing him of fraud for an altered statutory quotation. Emory University conducted both an internal inquiry and a review by an external Investigative Committee. The committee found serious flaws in both the quality and veracity of Bellesiles' work, and he announced that he was resigning his tenured professorship. Although Dr. Bellesiles disputed the Committee's findings in his statement, claiming he was the victim of an "intellectual lynching", he immediately announced his resignation effective a few months later. Knopf Press ended publication of the book in January 2003, rejecting Bellesiles's revisions and corrections as inadequate. Soft Skull Press published a revised version of "Arming America" in October, 2003.

[CNHT]

Don't forget Carter, Nixon, Eisenhower...

Yep but in truth, the Iraq policy was inked in 1996 with Bill Clinton. Only he just managed to botch Bosnia, and they didn't get around to actually invading until W was installed, even though he ran on a total Ron Paul-ish non-interventionist platform according to this speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX-FiXTgKFo

I think he really meant it and wasn't lying -- but then found out that when they let you be president, you gotta do what you're told.

[Raineyrocks]

Oops, sorry rainey, I didn't realize you had previously posted the same article.  Thanks to whoever merged them.

No problem!  

[KBCraig]

Oops, sorry rainey, I didn't realize you had previously posted the same article.  Thanks to whoever merged them.

No problem!  

I thought the story sounded familiar. I had to laugh when I saw I'd said the same thing the first time it was posted.

I oppose this war as much as anyone. That doesn't mean that everyone else opposed to the war is automatically a saint. Jimmy Massey lied. Jesse Macbeth lied. Soldiers who served in the same area at the same time as Joshua Key are saying that he's lying, too.

I wasn't there. I only know that Key's claims don't pass the sniff test for me as an Army veteran. I was hoping that Puke would speak up on this thread, since he's one of the very few on this forum who've seen active duty in Iraq.

It's possible to oppose the war and still think Cindy Sheehan is a self-serving farking moonbat. It's possible to oppose the war and point out that some of the "atrocity whistleblowers" who have been so readily embraced by the anti-war movement, have been proven to be utter frauds and liars. And, I would hope that it's possible to oppose the war and point out the above without having your karma hammered.

Maybe not, though. 

[KBCraig]

The left has embraced Key as a example of anti-war sentiment from the man on the ground, listing atrocities/etc... doesn't mean he's a good example.  If he is lying, that damages the anti-war cause far worse.

Careful, Seth... you wouldn't want it to get around that you and I actually agree on this. 

[Puke]

The use of plastic explosives to open doors sounds suspicious. Most raids involve a shotgun to the door handle. C-4 is a bit extreme for a house door.
The 24 hour timeline seems odd as well. He doesn't mention going through Kuwait; possibly it wasn't important. There is also a couple days of orientation and in-processing when you arrive to the base.

I was a mechanic though, so my experience was far different. The story sounds embellished. The main points could be true though. Some poeple like to make stories more amazing than they actually were.

Try the Members Speak section of Iraq Veterans Against the War for more stories about Iraq.
http://www.ivaw.org/membersspeak

[KBCraig]

Thanks, Puke. I'll take a look through that site.

BTW, I doubt your in-country familiarization was much different just because you were a mechanic instead of an engineer.

I was in an Armored Cavalry Regiment (11th, not 3rd), and our attached Combat Engineer company was mostly forgotten unless we needed an obstacle breeched or bridged, or if we needed a hasty defilade that we couldn't create with our own chainsaws and det cord. Frankly, our mechanics were a heckuva lot more valuable to us than the engineers were (no disrespect to the Combat Ditch Diggers out there!)

[Roycerson]

I was a mechanic though, so my experience was far different.

I think you're on the right track.  Going through Kuwait, countless hours of boredom are what I hear from my brother who is currently carrying a SAW in Iraq (crazy kid is happy he got promoted from driving a Bradley to walking exposed with a saw). 200 raids in six months is hard to believe.  The detaining every male big enough to handle a weapon fits with his accounts though, sometimes they do whole towns that way according to him.  That really should be enough shouldn't it?  Shame he wants to go and destroy his credibility when the truth should be more than sufficient to get people on his side.