Moving underground

[Crocuta]

Does anyone have a primer or reading list for someone who would like to explore what would be involved in checking out of the system, moving underground, living under the radar, etc?  Preferably not in the sense of being homeless and living on the street, but more how one goes about maintaining some sembalance of civilization while living without the bonds that society imposes?  I ask purely in the theoretical sense.

Thanks!

[Quantrill]

www.paladin-press.com would be a good place to start.

My thoughts on the subject - if you wanted to not be found by government types it wouldn't be too terribly difficult, but would probably be inconvenient.  Your car/house is probably in your name so this would have to be remedied.  If you're in NH there are PORCs who are gracious enough to rent out rooms and I doubt they require SSN #s.      If you can run your own cash-based business you are home free.  Learn a trade or produce something that people will pay cash for and you don't have to punch a time clock.  Sell stuff on E-bay.  Get a bike or ride the bus/taxi.    Have the conveniences of life, but in another name (maybe a friends' info or maybe a strangers' info). 

Semi-homelessness is another option without actually living on the street.  An RV can be parked in many different places and you would always have a bed to sleep on.  Cheaper than making house payments too. 

Maybe get one of those cellphones with prepaid calling cards.

Use mail-forwarding services or send your mail to a friends' house. 



One thing on this:  If there are people who really would like to "disappear" maybe some PORCs could help out with this.  Maybe someone has an empty closet and wouldn't mind receiving peoples' mail in exchange for a holding fee.  Maybe someone wouldn't mind putting their name on something in order for another person to remain anonymous.  Someone could buy guns in their name and later make a legal, private transaction requiring no paperwork.  Cars are a little iffy.  I don't think I'd want a car registered in my name that someone else uses for obvious reasons (perhaps there are ways around this as well).   

Just a few thoughts on the subject...

[MaineShark]

If you can run your own cash-based business you are home free.  Learn a trade or produce something that people will pay cash for and you don't have to punch a time clock.

Or change your name to "Cash"... then you can even take checks... (don't laugh; it's been done)

Someone could buy guns in their name and later make a legal, private transaction requiring no paperwork.

FYI, this isn't legal.  It's called a "straw man purchase," and is explicitly prohibited.  Not that I'm telling anyone out there to obey the law, but one shouldn't break the law without being aware of doing so.

Now, if someone happened to want to sell some of their own guns privately, that's fine.  But buying for re-sale is not, according to the Feds.

I would also comment that anyone selling a firearm typically does keep some paperwork to prove the sale, because if that firearm is ever captured and traced, guess who it comes back to?  The last person to purchase it from a dealer, unless that person has a paper trail to prove it went elsewhere.  But bills of sale of that sort typically sit in safes or filing cabinets at the seller's own house, rather than being filed into the Federal system, like NICS paperwork.

Joe

[Raineyrocks]

I would also comment that anyone selling a firearm typically does keep some paperwork to prove the sale, because if that firearm is ever captured and traced, guess who it comes back to?  The last person to purchase it from a dealer, unless that person has a paper trail to prove it went elsewhere.

Yup, I was just in a gun shop last week and this guy asked the store owner if he could just sell his gun to anyone without paperwork.  The owner said the same thing Joe said above and you can get the transfer papers for the sale and have it done right there in the gun shop.

I like some of the ideas Quantrill came up.  I have a book somewhere about this stuff, I'll try to look for it and maybe I can find other ideas too.

[Cincinnatus]

  For true anonymous phone service, an answering machine with remote access can
be placed in a friendly location and accessed via public payphone with a long distance calling card
paid for with cash,... if one were so inclined.  One way pagers are impossible to track, unlike
cellphones.  You can use the pager for emergency notifications.

   Ditching cellphones and ATM/debit/credit cards is a start.  They can watch you at home.
But what you do away from home is no longer anonymous with cellphones and financial cards
on your person.

[Raineyrocks]

Ditching cellphones and ATM/debit/credit cards is a start.  They can watch you at home.
But what you do away from home is no longer anonymous with cellphones and financial cards
on your person.

I've never understood that spying thing with cell phones, computers, google and credit cards.  Is there some kind of hidden microphone or camera in all of that stuff?  What if I bought my computer a few years ago?  Are track phones safe?  I know I have a lot questions, sorry.  I have tried to google these questions but can't find any info.

[Russell Kanning]

but one shouldn't break the law without being aware of doing so.

That is impossible. It seems like all you gun guys have been so beaten down by the government that you like studying laws.

[MaineShark]

I would also comment that anyone selling a firearm typically does keep some paperwork to prove the sale, because if that firearm is ever captured and traced, guess who it comes back to?  The last person to purchase it from a dealer, unless that person has a paper trail to prove it went elsewhere.

Yup, I was just in a gun shop last week and this guy asked the store owner if he could just sell his gun to anyone without paperwork.  The owner said the same thing Joe said above and you can get the transfer papers for the sale and have it done right there in the gun shop.

I wouldn't recommend taking him up on his offer to do transfers.  Every transfer is recorded.

I would just recommend keeping your own, private records of any sales you make.

I've never understood that spying thing with cell phones, computers, google and credit cards.  Is there some kind of hidden microphone or camera in all of that stuff?

The microphone in your cell phone isn't hidden.  It's part of the phone.  And the programming of the phone can be updated over the network (this is done regularly to keep the phone working properly, as they make upgrades).  It would not be difficult to re-program a phone to keep its microphone active and transmitting.

but one shouldn't break the law without being aware of doing so.

That is impossible. It seems like all you gun guys have been so beaten down by the government that you like studying laws.

Know thy enemy.  Else, all is lost.

Joe

[error]

The microphone in your cell phone isn't hidden.  It's part of the phone.  And the programming of the phone can be updated over the network (this is done regularly to keep the phone working properly, as they make upgrades).  It would not be difficult to re-program a phone to keep its microphone active and transmitting.

This has been done before. The FBI did it to some Mafiosi a year or two back; it made all the papers. I'll dig up the story if anyone's interested in that aspect. But this has one significant side effect they apparently didn't count on: it runs down the battery fast, just like you're talking on the phone.

[Quantrill]

I'm interested, error!

Now, if someone happened to want to sell some of their own guns privately, that's fine.

This is exactly what I'm talking about of course.  I'm not going to ask anyone on here to buy me a 30.06 but if someone happened to have one they wanted to sell, then they could bring it to a MVP meeting or something and we could make a perfectly legal transaction.  Gun laws are crazy and the last thing I need is to be in the slammer on some lame-ass Straw Man charge. 


What I've heard about your cell phone is "they" can make a call (without you knowing you're being called) and track your location that way -  GPS systems.   Though I don't know for sure.   If "they" decide to listen to me, maybe I should get a Yanni cd, and crank it up...



P.S.   I'd also like to say that I really like the idea of a Porcupine Acres (or almost Porc. Acres).  Of course you run the risk of the 'compound' being raided and ending up with 35 bullet holes in you, but I think it's a great idea nonetheless.  Man, I just can't understand the zeal of some Americans to imprison and shoot at other Americans...

[Cincinnatus]

   If you use the same pre-paid wireless phone long enough, they can figure
out who you are based on your calling habits- do a search for the
phrases "pen register" and "track and trace".

Calling habits tell a great deal  about the owners associations, even if the
phone is  not connected to an SSN.  Its not uncommon for a person who
wishes to remain anonymous to carry more than one phone, alternating
which one is on and not having more than one turned on at the same time.
This aspect is especially important when moving around.

[error]

You have to be careful not to call the same people if you do something like that, too.

[KBCraig]

Don't forget OnStar, which isn't limited to General Motors vehicles. Other makers include the hardware too.

To their credit, there was a case where OnStar declined a Fed request to turn on the "monitor" mode, at least unless a warrant was produced. Perhaps someone will provide a cite, but it's too late for me to start searching. The company does claim to guard privacy, because without customer confidence, their business would collapse. I don't know if they have cooperated when warrants or National Security Letters.

And yet, the capability exists: if you drive an OnStar-equipped vehicle, the technology allows OnStar to turn on the microphone and listen to everything happening in the car, without your knowledge. They can also use the GPS track-and-record "feature" to determine exactly where you are and where you've been, real-time.

I'm a GM guy. But I won't buy a new GM product (or other OnStar-equipped auto) unless I'm satisfied that the OnStar system can be totally defeated, from GPS recording to communications.

[error]

I'm a GM guy. But I won't buy a new GM product (or other OnStar-equipped auto) unless I'm satisfied that the OnStar system can be totally defeated, from GPS recording to communications.

From a one minute Google search, I learned that it's not only possible but fairly easy. You can even hack a serial port into it so you can connect a laptop and (ab)use its internal GPS, and probably a whole bunch of other things.

[Cincinnatus]

   Onstar is very easy to disable, but down the road I'm willing to guess
that those systems will be interconnected with the Event Data Recorder
"for safety" to notify the authorities, which would allow insurers to refuse
payment based on "attempted fraud"  because the EDR has been tampered.
Right now its as easy as pulling a connector or two.