Should we perform the mother of all civil dis?

[Dave Ridley]

Another thought, something we've learned the hard way:

It would be important not to get TOO organized in the sense of having an exact preplanned role for each person.  That does not work because individual volunteers don't always deliver.   Structure and organization is not our thing, but communications..that we are good at and I think it's all we need in terms of a system.

For example with the news release, perhaps five people would volunteer to write news releases here and there....but it would be unwise to plan ahead on so and so doing a specific news release, because if they promised a week in advance ....they might not do it.   And if they don't do it, how much of a delay might there be while we are unaware that they've fallen through on us? 

Instead things are best brought to fruition semi-spontaneously.  Someone could just post a message to the dedicated forum thread saying hey can someone write a release about such and such between now and tomorrow evening?   And is anyone available to distribute it?   

By that time there would probably be thirty different people looking at the thread every hour and someone would probably come forward quickly.   It's unlikely they would change their mind or fall through immediately after making the promise.

Duplication of effort can be prevented simply by sounding off on the forum thread.  Hey I'm doing such and such...no need to worry about that.  but I can't do so and so...who can?

[TackleTheWorld]

Inspired, Dada.

My estimate of present strength
People willing to get arrested	2-4
People willing to demonstrate but not get arrested	5-8
People willing to attend street events	15-30
People willing to lobby state politicians in person	5-8
People willing to attend statehouse events	30
People willing to write and call multiple wrongdoers	10
People willing to write LTEs	50

and those numbers assume a very heated emotional topic.

I'm thinking we'll have to wait for an extraordinary injustice to draw enough people.
I'd work on recruiting in the meantime.


Arm wrestle you for the Jane Doe role, lastlady!

[John]

Arm wrestle you for the Jane Doe role, lastlady!

[d_goddard]

Dada, this is a powerful and wonderful vision.
Let me be just another one of many to say, "yeah, I've been thinking something along these lines, too...."
I think this is what former Rep. McElroy kept alluding to last year in court, when he was talking to us about "getting 10x results" from effort put forth.

we'll have to wait for an extraordinary injustice to draw enough people.

Agreed 100% -- this is the key to success

• The issue needs to be an unmitigated injustice, that the average "person on the street" cannot ignore or rationalize away
• The issue needs to directly touch the lives of ordinary people -- our friends and neighbors, not just a particular few
• The issue needs to be a libertarian "hot-button" issue that will motivate the free-staters and friends to action
• The issue needs to be one where there is a "path out" that the authoritarians can take, and still save some face

[FTL_Ian]

Applause for your vision Dave, awesome job!  Looking forward to participating.   

[John]

I say be careful about party affiliation.
I "might" take part in some of this.

[Dan]

IF we all keep sharpening our knives (some of us have yet to even find them) then this will _just_happen_, like Joel Winters and the RealID fiasco last year.

Then again, you guys would know, right?  We live in exciting times.

[Rocketman]

You said it, Dan.  Preparation, hard work, and seizing the moment when your moment arrives... a.k.a. timing.

[lastlady]

Arm wrestle you for the Jane Doe role, lastlady!

You got it! Although Lauren I am in such admiration of you are your acts that I would gladly step aside in honor of you.

But with that said what girl doesn't love a good arm wrestle!! 

[Kat Kanning]

*raises hand*

[Pat McCotter]

*raises hand*

You don't love a good arm wrestle, Kat?

[Dave Ridley]

More thoughts:

Do any of you agree with, or disagree with, the idea that property seizures would be the best issue to go after with this kind of "Integrated Civil Dis?"

I'm talking specifically about cases where they want to seize someone's home or business because they didn't cough up enough money to fund the jailschools.

How would civil disobedience best serve us and the victims in a case like that?   Who would be the ideal type of victim to rally around, and what would be the ideal type of property to defend?   What peaceable means could be used to defend it?    What would be its ideal location and physical characteristics?

[Dave Ridley]

Answering my own questions:

How would civil disobedience best serve us and the victims in a case like that?

One approach would be to get arrested trying to enter a home or business after authorities seized it.

But I like better the idea that we could simply occupy, and keep occupied, some home or business that was slated for seizure - before it was seized.  Obviously this assumes the owner vigorously approves.

Then that place could serve as a gathering point, even a sort of "inn" for whatever activists the owner wanted to be there.

<< Who would be the ideal type of victim to rally around>>

Someone popular in the community, innocent of hurting or threatening others.  Someone whose economic preservation would serve the needs of her community.   A sympathetic and successful character.  A Native.  Someone resisting the tax on principle more than on financial grounds.   

<<what would be the ideal type of property to defend? >>

I think...not  a home but a business.   I could be wrong; it's a close call.  The advantages of safeguarding a business would be:

1) It protects jobs perhaps
2) Free publicity does more good for a business than a homeowner
3) The activism at the business might result in new, unexpected commerce, or new unexpected efficiencies.  This could render the business more viable than it was before the attempted government seizure.

>> What would be its ideal location and physical characteristics? >>

The business would be located in or fairly close to Manchester...within easy driving distance of our entire in-state activist base.

The business and the land under it would both be owned by the businesswoman we were trying to assist.  Actually it would probably be a man, but I think a woman would be better ideally.

Its building or complex would be big enough to house a respectable number of people without bunching them up.  It would be structured in such a way that no one on the outside could have a easy sense where people were inside the business, or how many.  A basement would be a plus. It would have surveillance cameras recording the scene.

It would be a pleasant place to gather.  It might even have some kind of outdoor section, so if anyone were trapped there for a long time they could avoid cabin fever.    Ideally this would be a courtyard.   It would be a location with good cell phone reception and wireless internet reception.

It would be capable of functioning and housing activists even after a complete shutoff of utilities.   It would have good roof access so that solar panels could be deployed if need be.   Nearby buildings would be owned or rented by friendly persons willing to cast us a wireless internet signal should we be otherwise cut off. 

This brings up other questions:   If it were connected physically to other businesses, would that be good or bad?     How would one go about calming the potential anger of the owner's competitors?  "He's undercutting us because he's not paying his property tax!"

<<   What peaceable means could be used to defend it?  >>

Maybe the same kinds of passive defenses that inner city businesses use to prevent overnight breakins...   Those rising falling steel doors or whatever they are that cover the storefront. 

Activists would need to be present at all times in the facility, sleeping there, trading there, having fun there...  There would ideally be a video camera or two, and a still camera or two, and persons ready to operate them, at all times.   

People could chain or otherwise connect themselves to parts of the building in the event of a forceable seizure.    They could lie down in front of invaders.    They could make phone calls from the scene to alert and activate other supporters.  Those unwilling to be arrested (probably a majority) could comply with great slowness if ordered to leave.   They could make clear to the enforcers, that their headqarters would become the next focus of activists, should the business be seized or shut down somehow.

What else could they do? 

What are your thoughts on all this?

[TackleTheWorld]

But I like better the idea that we could simply occupy, and keep occupied, some home or business that was slated for seizure - before it was seized.  Obviously this assumes the owner vigorously approves.


<<   What peaceable means could be used to defend it?  >>

Maybe the same kinds of passive defenses that inner city businesses use to prevent overnight breakins...   Those rising falling steel doors or whatever they are that cover the storefront. 

Activists would need to be present at all times in the facility, sleeping there, trading there, having fun there...  There would ideally be a video camera or two, and a still camera or two, and persons ready to operate them, at all times.   

People could chain or otherwise connect themselves to parts of the building in the event of a forceable seizure.    They could lie down in front of invaders.    They could make phone calls from the scene to alert and activate other supporters.  Those unwilling to be arrested (probably a majority) could comply with great slowness if ordered to leave.   They could make clear to the enforcers, that their headqarters would become the next focus of activists, should the business be seized or shut down somehow.

What else could they do? 

If supporters are light-hearted, invite the media inside to see the fun and harmless activities.
If supporters are afraid, dig an escape tunnel.

[Dave Ridley]

Other questions:  How would we incorporate the legislative side on something like this?

How does one best go about learning of such seizures planned in or near manchester?