Courtwatchers requested for Monday Tax Court case

[jaqeboy]

Damnit, Jack! I just got off vacation so cannot take the day Monday. If I'd known before I could have added it to my vacation time.

So is this centered on third-party reporting?

If you mean reporting by employers, for example, no. I am not employed - I'm a small businessman. In the Interrogatories, though, IRS has asked for information that I cannot, in good conscience, give. That's what they might not like.

Nope. Third-party reporting is when you force suppliers and service-providers to fill out a W-2 and send them a 1099 (with copies to the IRS) for the money you paid them.

OK, well I've had small suppliers and customers and a relatively paperwork-free business life.

[LordBaltimore]

Anyway, here's my need: a couple of observers to watch and take notes, and to drive my car home if the court finds my stand so disagreeable that they jail me for contempt.

Being jailed for contempt isn't your risk.  It's Tax Court, not District Court. 

Your risk is a substantial fine if you argue something that has already lost in court several times before or they thik you are trying to delay collection. They can nail you with a penalty of up to $25,000.

Section 6673. Sanctions and costs awarded by courts
  (a) Tax court proceedings
      (1) Procedures instituted primarily for delay, etc.
        Whenever it appears to the Tax Court that -
          (A) proceedings before it have been instituted or maintained
        by the taxpayer primarily for delay,
          (B) the taxpayer's position in such proceeding is frivolous
        or groundless, or
          (C) the taxpayer unreasonably failed to pursue available
        administrative remedies,

      the Tax Court, in its decision, may require the taxpayer to pay
      to the United States a penalty not in excess of $25,000.

I just plan to maintain my beliefs and practices, based on my religious convictions. Not sure they're going to like that, but some of these battles have already been fought out before.

They may have been fought before, but they've always lost which ups your risk of a the monetary sanction above.

[(V)]

richardirs

Our chaperon from the irs. Thanks for playing.

[LordBaltimore]

richardirs

Our chaperon from the irs. Thanks for playing.

Don't prove me wrong or anything.  Just insult me instead... 

Don't work for the government, never have, never will.  But I have spent considerable time researching the tax issue, and unlike a few people here, I'm not a fan of blind faith.

[jaqeboy]

Well, I came out alive today. Essentially got a continuance to "work with the IRS" on the matter further. IRS counsel didn't utter a peep.

Expected issues and outcomes today:

0) I do not use titles of honor or nobility, such as "Your Honor"
Outcome: I intended to call the Judge "John" (His name is John Dean) if I had to address him, but the occasion didn't occur at the beginning. I did slip once and called him "Your Honor" out of old habit. The lesson is to slow down and carefully consider what one is saying at all times.

1) my declining to be a numbered person because of my religious beliefs ( I don't use a Social Security Number),
Outcome: I explained to the judge that because of religious beliefs, I do not use a Social Security Number - he didn't bat an eyelash. I don't think he wanted to touch this and I think it has been fought out enough to not be a controversial issue anymore. I'm going to, especially since I stated it clearly today on the record, move on from this issue and treat it as a fully settled fact and not an issue for any further consideration, discussion or debate.

2) my declining to swear because of my religious beliefs,
Outcome: This did not come up because I was not asked to be sworn as a witness today.

3) my practice of not visiting my troubles on other people because of my religious beliefs and conscience. IRS will want to know all people I have had as clients and all people I have subcontracted work to. It would be a violation of my beliefs and conscience by naming them.
Outcome: Did not come up today. Will probably be an issue later for IRS, who may ask the judge for a ruling on my objections to their questions.

4) the amount of tax owed. I am willing to tell IRS what my revenues and expenses are in numerical amounts and to have them or others compute the tax they say I should pay.
Outcome: There was no testimony today, but I did rail a bit about how IRS wants 10X what I may owe by any normal calculation.

Thank you , Cathleen for attending. Hope you enjoyed the lunch and the trip to the museum afterwards.

[Tom Sawyer]

  Jack

(and Cathleen)

[Lloyd Danforth]

Do Amish and Mennonites pay taxes?

[Quantrill]

That's a damn good question.  I've wondered that too.  Probably, why else would they have all those furniture stores?  They seem to be reluctant Capitalists...

[jaqeboy]

Do Amish and Mennonites pay taxes?

The Amish fought being included as a group required to participate in the Social Security Old Age benefits program. They won because they did have a program for caring for their elderly and because of the public backlash to the IRS seizing 3 of Valentine Byler's horses. Story here: http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/amishss.htm

From another article: "Byler's case led to an amendment to the 1965 Medicare bill exempting the Old Order Amish -- and any other religious objectors who opposed government insurance schemes " [I think there is a clarification to this that states the religion had to begin before 1950, but I'll have to check that]
(ref: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MichelleMalkin/2000/12/07/the_amish_vs_the_feds)

The Amish do pay income taxes, but do not pay the Social Security "tax."

A CPA once told me that the Amish are the only religion the IRS treats differently. I'm not sure if the Mennonites fall under that as they preceded the Amish.

[jaqeboy]

Do Amish and Mennonites pay taxes?

"Byler's case led to an amendment to the 1965 Medicare bill exempting the Old Order Amish...

This has to be 1955...

[jaqeboy]

Here's SSA's answer to the question: Can members of religious groups be exempt from Social Security?

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=514&p_created=976735937&p_sid=5c51WrAi&p_accessibility=0&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTkmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTcsNjYmcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0yLjY2JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1

Something stinks of discrimination about the 1950 requirement.