The Franconia shootings

[LiveFree]

Sounds like a bad situation all around.  And if I was the passenger, I'd be suing the town of Franconia for getting maced for no reason...

[powerchuter]

Here is some interesting reading...straight from the state of New Hampshire's "Police Standards and Training Council".

Please visit this website page and go down to question and answer eight.
http://www.pstc.nh.gov/faqs.htm#coopers

Down at the bottom you will see that they demand that their officers "assume a professional, paramilitary appearance and demeanor in uniform"...

What's wrong with that "attitude" for what started out in this country as "peace officers"?

Well, for starters, the "military" is not to be used "domestically"...

So what do "they" do!?!
They just "federalize" local officers and turn them into "paramilitary" enforcement agents of the national and global new world order elite...

We...at the local level...fund "police departments" and actually PAY for our own "subjugation" to these new, paramilitary trained, paramilitary equipped, enforcement agents!?!

What can we do in New Hampshire?

Ed Naile likes to tell the story of a police chief who put up a warrant article to double the size and funding of "his" local department.  Some wonderful soul made a motion to change the warrant article to totally DEFUND the department...AND IT PASSED!!!

Imagine, being the chief and, while trying to "burden" your local community with more taxes and more "paramilitary enforcement agents"...getting "fired" instead!

Totally Cool!

[Quantrill]

Floyd asked the meter reader, "Do I need to kick your ass?"

The whole situation is crazy.  I don't know what the "right" thing to do would be, nor do I know how I would act in such a situation. 
But it is weird that the cops now say "we can't do this alone".  If it was the cop who shot the driver 4 times and Floyd then shot the cop, I doubt very much the police force would get behind this guy...

[Raineyrocks]

Floyd asked the meter reader, "Do I need to kick your ass?"

The whole situation is crazy.  I don't know what the "right" thing to do would be, nor do I know how I would act in such a situation. 
But it is weird that the cops now say "we can't do this alone".  If it was the cop who shot the driver 4 times and Floyd then shot the cop, I doubt very much the police force would get behind this guy...

Really, he'd be screwed for sure.

[MaineShark]

In this case there was obvious aggression and initiation of force committed by McKay.
McKay would not have subjected himself to someone else doing this to him!

Let's "change out" the characters to more fully illustrate the extent of the problems with this confrontation, the aggression and initiation of force, and the attempts made to escalate, and to diffuse, this aggression.

Let's replace McKay's character with "the husband" and replace Kenney's character with "the wife"...
They are having a confrontation...wife drives away...husband runs wife off road and blocks car...wife fears for her life as husband has broke her jaw before...husband pepper sprays wife...wife shoots husband in defense of her life and sovereignty...

Now doesn't that show the situation for what it really was!?!

Always...ALWAYS!...subject a situation to the non-aggression principle, the golden rule, and a change out of characters to immediately show the wrongness of the party aggressing and initiating force!

Just my humble, honest opinion....

Exactly.  A bit of metal pinned to one's chest does not magically make one super-human and capable of initiating force against others without being evil for doing so.

Joe

[KBCraig]

Interesting article today in the UL. Contrary to reports that McKay had to chase down Kenney and force him off the road to get him to stop, witness reports say that Kenney peacefully stopped the second time. McKay then pulled past him, turned around, and stopped bumper to bumper, with both vehicles idling. Then McKay floored it and pushed Kenney's car off the road.

I do not believe Kenney was justified in this situation, no matter how fearful he was. McKay may very well have been an asshole and a bully, but those are not shootin' offenses.


http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=A+long+road+to+a+deadly+confrontation&articleId=6b61b8a0-72df-4c84-881b-65838bae9a3a

A long road to a deadly confrontation

By SCOTT BROOKS
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff

FRANCONIA – Liko Kenney used to say the night he met Cpl. Bruce McKay was the night he died.

Kenney told friends he had an "out of body" experience that Sunday night in January 2003, when McKay, a veteran Franconia policeman, followed Kenney's tire tracks to a snowy parking lot in a seedy part of town.

Accounts differ depending on who is telling the story. An official report, issued by the Grafton County Attorney, says Kenney went ballistic, raving at McKay and refusing to hand over his driver's license. Backup came, and Kenney kept yelling: "These officers are molesting me! These officers are torturing me!"

Kenney maintained the policemen beat him into a coma, a story he continued to tell even years later. He said that one officer punched him in the jaw. Soon afterward, he claimed, he passed out while being choked.

"Liko said he died that night," his friend Matt Chernicki, 22, said. "His exact words were, he came back to life, and (the officers) were making a plan about what they were going to tell the EMTs."

Four years later, Kenney and McKay are both dead. Authorities say Kenney, 24, shot McKay four times, then ran over his body, during a May 11 traffic stop on the road to Kenney's home.

An Easton man who watched the scene unfold, Gregory Floyd, picked up the fallen officer's gun and fired at Kenney, killing him instantly. Authorities have said Floyd was justified and will not face charges.

Friends and relatives who mourn Kenney will gather today in a memorial service at the family-run Tamarack Tennis Camp, mere yards from the scene of the shootings. For them, it will be a time to recall the good in Kenney, even as they struggle to understand what he did that fatal Friday night.

"I think the true facts will come out," his mother, Michele, said a few days after his death. "I don't think anyone's come close (to the truth) yet."

McKay and Kenney had several run-ins over the years. Their confrontation in January 2003 led to several criminal charges for Kenney, who ultimately pleaded guilty to assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest. He served 15 days in jail -- the short sentence influenced by input from McKay.

"The offenses could have resulted in a sentence of prison time," Grafton County Attorney Rick St. Hilaire said in a statement issued last week. "However, Officer Bruce McKay expressed his desire that compassion be shown to the defendant. He supported a short 15-day term of incarceration in the county jail, which was accepted by the court."

For several months that year, McKay was a frequent presence in Kenney's life. Once, he arrested Kenney on two counts of marijuana possession, both of which were eventually dropped.

Later, he took Kenney to court for carrying a blowgun on his four-wheeler, a violation of Kenney's bail conditions. Kenney wound up having to wear an ankle bracelet.

Kenney's friends had their own problems with McKay. Just as co-workers and state officials came to heap praise on the officer in the days after his death, many young people in town said they had come to think of McKay as a bully.

"It seemed like he had it out for certain people, and one of them was Liko," said Robin M. Boutin, 21, a close friend of Kenney's since their days on the elementary-school bus.

This past January, Kenney sought police help when he alleged his 15-year-old nephew had stolen a .45-caliber pistol from his bedroom. An investigation found Kenney grabbed the teen around the neck and choked him.

State police charged Kenney with simple assault. Friends said Kenney blamed McKay.

"He felt McKay was out to get him," Kenney's mother said.

Kenney came to fear McKay. Friends say his paranoia led him to buy his first guns -- items his liberal family had always shunned.

Toward the end, it was not uncommon for Kenney to leave his parents' Easton homestead with a loaded handgun. Friends said he carried it to protect himself from McKay.

"When Liko looked at Bruce McKay, he really didn't see a policeman with a badge," said Kenney's cousin, Chance Stith. "He saw a man with a gun."

Boutin said she was hanging out at a volleyball court off Route 116 on May 11 when McKay pulled Kenney over, purportedly for speeding and a problem with his registration. Close enough to hear the ensuing gunshots, Boutin and a friend quickly hopped in a car and headed toward the scene.

By the time she got there, she said, McKay was dead beneath the car. Kenney, also lifeless, was slouched over in the driver's seat.

"You don't think it's going to happen," Boutin said. "And then it did."

Kenney was driving south on Route 116 with a friend, Caleb McCauley, when McKay's cruiser pulled up from behind, its lights flashing.

When he pulled over, authorities say, Kenney asked McKay to call for another officer. McKay refused.

Kenney started to drive away. A relative, Suzy Stith, who spoke to McCauley said Kenney told the officer he would meet him at the Kenney family compound just over the Easton line, less than a mile down the road.

McKay chased after him. Sue Thompson, who runs an inn on Route 116, said she heard the cruiser's siren and went to a window. She saw Kenney's Toyota Celica come to a stop near a telephone pole just beyond her neighbor's house.

The cruiser pulled up ahead, she said, and made what Thompson's daughter described as a "19-point turn." Both cars idled in the roadway, their front bumpers touching.

Then, she said, McKay went into drive. He pushed the Celica off the road and into a patch of dirt beside a neighbor's garage -- a distance of maybe 50 feet -- his cruiser ultimately stopping with its video camera positioned to film what happened next.

Because her view was obstructed by the garage, Thompson said, she never saw McKay turn his pepper spray on Kenney and McCauley, as authorities later described after reviewing the video. She was no longer watching, she said, when she heard the sound of gunfire.

Back at her window, she said, she saw McKay stumble across the road, one hand to his chest.

She was already dialing 911 when Kenney's car veered across the road and onto her neighbor's lawn. McKay was pinned underneath. It would take six men to lift the car off him.

"It happened so fast," Thompson said. "It was almost surreal."

McCauley has refused to talk about the shootings with reporters. A brief interview with WMUR-TV reduced him to tears.

The only words he managed to muster, specific to Kenney's frame of mind that night, were, "I've never seen anyone so scared in my life."

[powerchuter]

Interesting article today in the UL. Contrary to reports that McKay had to chase down Kenney and force him off the road to get him to stop, witness reports say that Kenney peacefully stopped the second time. McKay then pulled past him, turned around, and stopped bumper to bumper, with both vehicles idling. Then McKay floored it and pushed Kenney's car off the road.

I do not believe Kenney was justified in this situation, no matter how fearful he was. McKay may very well have been an asshole and a bully, but those are not shootin' offenses.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=A+long+road+to+a+deadly+confrontation&articleId=6b61b8a0-72df-4c84-881b-65838bae9a3a

McCauley has refused to talk about the shootings with reporters. A brief interview with WMUR-TV reduced him to tears.

The only words he managed to muster, specific to Kenney's frame of mind that night, were, "I've never seen anyone so scared in my life."

I do not believe McKay was justified in this situation.  Nor do I believe 99% of "police" activities are justified.  The criminal elite in our supposed "government" use the paramilitary trained and armed "police" to keep the sheeple enslaved in our fascist police state.

I don't pretend to know how "scared" or "fearful" anyone else is in a particular situation...
Nor do I pass undue judgement on a situation...
But I do judge who is the clear aggressor...
And who is just trying to get away from it...

This situation will be a "benchmark" and "turning point" in the relationships between the masters, the enforcers, and the slaves...
Peaceful people must speak out against this thuggery and make the appropriate changes!

How many "Waco", "Ruby Ridge", "Carl Drega", "Liko Kenney" incidents have to occur before we form a large enough contingency to make significant changes in the working relationships between people who have thought out "non-aggression" and those who haven't yet "awakened"?

These situations are far from over...I'm afraid...
What remains to be seen is how "confrontational" future incidents between aggressors and their victims are...

As I've stated before, we should have a citizen's review board to investigate not only these incidents, but to review all "police" actions...
And a separate board to review the actions of the "judicial branch" and the "penal system"...

I believe we are getting close to the point of seriously changing the relationship between the aggressors of "governments" and the enslaved masses...

Vicki Weaver didn't live to see it...
David Koresh didn't live to see it...
Carl Drega didn't live to see it...
Liko Kenney didn't live to see it...

I remain hopeful that we will see change...
But I'm sceptacle that we could call the change "peaceful" with so many already dead...

You should also carry this philosophy on into the aggression against peoples here and abroad by the military and the alphabet-soup agencies of our supposed "government"...
So many have died...
Shameful...

[lastlady]

That was a great way of explaining the situation Powerchuter!

Agreed! Puts things in a whole new light. I was physically abused by the police when I was a young girl of 14. Go through that or even witness something similar and you will see these aggressors differently.

[KBCraig]

That was a great way of explaining the situation Powerchuter!

Agreed! Puts things in a whole new light. I was physically abused by the police when I was a young girl of 14. Go through that or even witness something similar and you will see these aggressors differently.

But does that make you believe like Powerchuter and Tom Alciere, that you are now justified in killing any cop on sight?

[error]

Any cop in sight is probably a threat to public safety, if not an immediately clear and present danger.

Though, honestly, there are bigger fish to fry.

[Insurgent]

Any cop in sight is probably a threat to public safety, if not an immediately clear and present danger.

Though, honestly, there are bigger fish to fry.

I am in complete agreement with you, Michael!

[lastlady]

That was a great way of explaining the situation Powerchuter!

Agreed! Puts things in a whole new light. I was physically abused by the police when I was a young girl of 14. Go through that or even witness something similar and you will see these aggressors differently.

But does that make you believe like Powerchuter and Tom Alciere, that you are now justified in killing any cop on sight?

I will see them as I see every being, equal in the eyes of God. I have no intention of killing or harming anyone. But if anyone were to harm me I would defend myself against that person including law enforcement or military although I realize that would be an extreme situation. I am not as skilled as powerchuter nor experienced and I've never read or heard him say that he would do what you mentioned above. I hear him constantly state that he would use superior DEFENSIVE force. The key word here DEFENSIVE. I don't know enough about Tom Alciere to comment on him.

If we come to find ourselves in a total fascist police state here in America similar to what people experienced under Stalin, Hitler, Franco or countless other dictators than yes I will shoot first and ask questions later. We are closer to that reality than most want to admit. I will not be taken away, I will not be abused, I will fight back, I will use defensive force. I will protect my life, it is my right and I will exercise it. I have to wonder how many here have ever been in a situation where they were defending their life against an aggressor. I have and trust me you would be surprised at how that survival instinct kicks in. You will do everything in your power in that moment to survive and to not be injured.

And lastly, I will never defend the state and their thugs as so many seem to.

[powerchuter]

That was a great way of explaining the situation Powerchuter!

Agreed! Puts things in a whole new light. I was physically abused by the police when I was a young girl of 14. Go through that or even witness something similar and you will see these aggressors differently.

But does that make you believe like Powerchuter and Tom Alciere, that you are now justified in killing any cop on sight?

Ok, the gloves are off...
I have NEVER said ANYONE is justified in killing anyone on sight!
And you damn well know it!
I only believe in using deadly force to put down or deter aggression, initiation of force, and fraud...

Tom may have said otherwise but he's personally admitted that he's too chicken...
I'm not sure I believe that though...

I do believe you owe me an apology sir!
And I might consider accepting it...

While the "officers" on the street can choose not to aggressively engage others...
In your case...each and every one that you have at your facility...you keep by force...
I won't debate some of them...but the majority do not belong there...anymore than you would...

[Raineyrocks]

Powerchuter:

As I've stated before, we should have a citizen's review board to investigate not only these incidents, but to review all "police" actions...
And a separate board to review the actions of the "judicial branch" and the "penal system"...

I believe we are getting close to the point of seriously changing the relationship between the aggressors of "governments" and the enslaved masses...

That sounds like a good idea.  I will try to look for some info on the beginning processes of something like that unless you already know?

[Raineyrocks]

Lastlady: 

If we come to find ourselves in a total fascist police state here in America similar to what people experienced under Stalin, Hitler, Franco or countless other dictators than yes I will shoot first and ask questions later. We are closer to that reality than most want to admit. I will not be taken away, I will not be abused, I will fight back, I will use defensive force. I will protect my life, it is my right and I will exercise it. I have to wonder how many here have ever been in a situation where they were defending their life against an aggressor. I have and trust me you would be surprised at how that survival instinct kicks in. You will do everything in your power at that moment to survive to not be injured. And lastly, I will never defend the state and their thugs as so many seem to.

I totally agree!  My family's safety and protection will be number 1 on my list!