My Son: Klan Reformer

[Raineyrocks]

I wouldn't say that this characterizes absolutely everybody, but I've definitely come across some people who get upset, use non sequiturs, and never address the points I've made in a logical, rational manner.

I wish I was smart enough to understand your points let alone address them in a logical, rational manner!

Honestly this whole thread has pretty much confused the heck out of me.   

I bet that you're much smarter than you think.  One thing that really gets to me is when people say about themselves, "I'm not smart enough."  You've already set the tone by which you'll evaluate the discussion.  It's like cutting yourself off at the knees before a footrace.

I think the reason this really bothers me is because I got that vibe from my parents even though I knew I was smart.  I think I was especially sensitive to this because I remember a significant moment when my father assumed that he knew what I was thinking and proceeded to lie to me outright.  What an insult to my intelligence, even as a young child!  (I used to fall into the same "duhhh" patterns with my father until recently... it's almost like a display of intelligence makes him feel threatened somehow, and the tension is palpable.)

So I encourage you to examine why you say that... I mean, I've seen you say it a number of times, and while you don't need to tell me why, I think it would be beneficial if you were able to figure that out.

Thanks James!   My sister says the same thing about me even though she was the A student and can whip a 20 page college paper out in one night and get an A.  It takes me days to do something like that but on the happier side I have gotten B's and A's maybe it just takes longer for me.
Growing up with a genius twin and constantly being compared to her was annoying so maybe that's it, I don't know.

[Lloyd Danforth]

James what steps are you taking towards your ends?

I can't promise it'll be satisfying!  I also can't predict how long it will take.

The first thing I'm trying to work towards is to formulate (along with others) a universal morality which is empirically verifiable.  This sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky, but it has very real consequences.  It involves how I treat others around me and how I respond to them.  I think that the basis of the state, for example, is due to the indoctrination of the acceptance of arbitrary authority.  It's not rational, not in the slightest, and this can be seen if you challenge the legitimacy of the state.  I wouldn't say that this characterizes absolutely everybody, but I've definitely come across some people who get upset, use non sequiturs, and never address the points I've made in a logical, rational manner.

This formulation really cannot be done in isolation, so the second part is to discuss the ideas with others, obtain criticism, respond, hone my arguments and adjust my stance if need be.  It is that discussion which, disseminated through society, will eventually bring the downfall of the state.

Now... if, somehow, the use of state power eliminates the existence of the state, that would be fantastic!  If there's a consistent way in which this proves my efforts to be wrong, then I'd love to hear about it, because not only do I have to be consistent and rational, but I have to make sure that whatever it is I spout off conforms to what is observable.

This doesn't mean that everything will be intuitive.  Free-market economics, for example, aren't intuitive, but they sure seem to be true.  The earth looks flat.  Saying it's a sphere is non-intuitive.

So, truly, it's a journey.  I don't have a 12-step plan for achieving freedom, because "freedom" is not a destination any more than "free will" is a destination, to borrow from Stefan Molyneux.  There is most certainly a long way to go, and I won't try to stop others from doing what they feel is right, but I'm not willing to back down if I think they're wrong.

Étienne de La Boétie had an incredible insight when he discussed the toppling of the tyrant over 450 years ago, and I'm sure you've seen this around the board:

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed.  I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.

You answered Dreepa with the answer I expected

[eques]

You answered Dreepa with the answer I expected

Am I already that predictable? 

Or were you referring to my long-windedness?

[Kat Kanning]

I suspect Dreepa was looking for concrete actions, not philosophy.

[eques]

I suspect Dreepa was looking for concrete actions, not philosophy.

That is why I said that my answer would probably not be satisfying.

I'm just not sure that there is a specific, concrete action that I can hang my hat on that I feel confident about putting forward.

Just about the only concrete thing I can say is to hold a discussion and draw as many people as I can into it.  Get them talking, get them thinking, because that's where it all starts.  That's where the actions come from.

I mean, I'm not talking about something that I think will happen in a very short amount of time.  If somebody manages to come up with The Plan, that's great!  I just think it has to be morally consistent, otherwise, what is the point of the goal?

[Lloyd Danforth]

I suspect Dreepa was looking for concrete actions, not philosophy.

Yeah.  There is already a lot of good philosophy, from which you can adapt your own 'alla carte' version.  I think Dreep was looking for concrete actions.  Resisting the system,  ignoring gov fees or paperwork, and laws that don't make any sense to you is concrete.

[Dreepa]

Bingo Kat and Lloyd.

Libertarians and Anarchists, Minimalists and Constitutionalists... all have great bodies of writing and theories... and certainly more of each would be welcome. However action is what it is all about.  Writiings and theories are only that... unless action is put behind it.
I don't agree with all the actions that people take but it is action.  And that is the name of the game.  And when I see some action  I say wow that person is brave I couldn't/wouldn't do that.  Then I think some more and it makes me a little braver.... and I increase my actions.  Some may say my actions are useless (political even).

I think to the dozens and dozens of threads on the FSP forum of people who will never move to NH.... and tell us (those in NH) what we should be doing. 

[mvpel]

Just about the only concrete thing I can say is to hold a discussion and draw as many people as I can into it.  Get them talking, get them thinking, because that's where it all starts.  That's where the actions come from.

The General Court put forth a bill that would have gutted shall-issue concealed carry licensing in New Hampshire, and hundreds of people were drawn into the discussion, packing the statehouse lobby and hallways thanks to activism by GO-NH, the NHLA, and others.

[Lloyd Danforth]

There you go!  You'll have to do this again.
I  know there isn't much gang activity in NH, but, perhaps we need to name the gangs there are and where they are.  We can start with that police chief association, and work are way thru the bureaucrat unions.

[Quantrill]

When one of the posters on this forum told me he was an anarchist, in my mind I said "great.  That means you'll do nothing and 20 years from now you'll still be as much a part of the system as you are now."  So basically, unless you're like Russell who is acting almost entirely on principle, you are of very little help to those of us still trying to work within 'the system'. 

I mean, if you buy gasoline, then you support gas taxes so you are a part of the system.  If you don't believe in 'the system' yet drive on roads paid for by the system, are you not a hypocrite?  Reducing your dependency on 'the system' should be the one common goal that every single one of us has.  If you have the opportunity to reduce that dependency by voting for a candidate, or voting to strike down a tax increase, then why would you not?  It's the strategically correct thing to do and it's very easy.

"My enemy's enemy is my friend."
We should be working together instead of arguing about things we disagree on.  If you want no government, then help us get a smaller government first...

 

The only way you'll have anarchy is by a natural or man-made disaster, and I'd prefer neither of those happened...

[Caleb]

When one of the posters on this forum told me he was an anarchist, in my mind I said "great.  That means you'll do nothing and 20 years from now you'll still be as much a part of the system as you are now."  So basically, unless you're like Russell who is acting almost entirely on principle, you are of very little help to those of us still trying to work within 'the system'. 

There again, though, there is the corallary:  20 years from now, you too will still be within the system (unless you decide to leave it) and the system will be much, much more oppressive. Many a patriot has wasted an entire lifetime fighting the downward current of this system (think Thomas Jefferson).

At what point do we cash in our chips and say that the system itself is the problem?

[Caleb]

Another thing I've been thinking about is this:  Everyone keeps saying that the FSP is *not* an anarchist group.  If you read the statement of intent, then sure, the FSP isn't strictly an anarchist group.  But if you also include the FSP's statement that a member of the FSP is not allowed to advocate the initiation of violence,

Then you come to a sudden realization that your beloved government will not have a funding source (since taxes, by definition, are the coercive taking of private property, and hence an initiation of force, and therefore no FSPer can advocate for any sort of taxation.)

Isn't this, in practice, anarchy? Does any "voluntary" government even merit the name "government"?

[Quantrill]

20 years from now, you too will still be within the system (unless you decide to leave it) and the system will be much, much more oppressive.

No chance of anything even close to this happening.  Assuming of course, that the 20,000 people who move here actually show up to vote.  If half the FSPers who move here choose not to vote or do anything other than maybe an occasional 'demonstration', then yes, I'd say you may have a point.   20,000 voters saying NO to all taxes and electing like-minded individuals would have a far greater impact than the few so-called "anarchists" who will still end up either buying a house and paying "property tax" on it or rent from someone who pays property tax.  And of course these people will still drive on "our" streets so they will still be hypocrites. 

I apologize for sounding so negative, but again, what are these people doing to help "the cause"?  Someone like me who is generally opposed to completely open borders would do much more to further the cause of liberty than the people who are for "free everything" that only hypothesize about how things "should be" but do very little (if anything) to change the way things are.

Personally, I say we follow the U.S. Constitution.  It's a great "starting point".  And someone like me could be talked into completely open borders.  But unfortunately, too many FSPers refuse to do much of anything, aside from

hold a discussion and draw as many people as I can into it.

I really don't want to waste too much cyberspace, but if you signed up and moved to NH because of the FSP, then hopefully you will do something while you're here.

And to take this even a step further.  I ADVOCATE CONSTITUTIONALISM.  THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE MY ULTIMATE GOAL.

Ugh, some people.

Yes, "my enemy's enemy is my friend."

[Caleb]

20 years from now, you too will still be within the system (unless you decide to leave it) and the system will be much, much more oppressive.

No chance of anything even close to this happening.  Assuming of course, that the 20,000 people who move here actually show up to vote.  If half the FSPers who move here choose not to vote or do anything other than maybe an occasional 'demonstration', then yes, I'd say you may have a point.   20,000 voters saying NO to all taxes and electing like-minded individuals would have a far greater impact than the few so-called "anarchists" who will still end up either buying a house and paying "property tax" on it or rent from someone who pays property tax.  And of course these people will still drive on "our" streets so they will still be hypocrites. 

"No chance"?  Do you really mean "no chance"?  Quantrill, to quote my friend Jefferson, "all experience hath shewn" that governments progress naturally towards more and greater tyranny. This is the natural order of things, and men in far greater position than any of us (such as Jefferson, Madison, et al) have already made the case for reduction in government, and spent their whole lives fighting for it, and yet here we are today living within the world's sole remaining empire. In the early 1800's, Jefferson was writing secession resolutions.

For me, the turning point, where I turned from being a "work within the system" guy to rejecting the system (for the most part, anyway; I support Ron Paul because I think he is good advertisement for some of our ideas.) At any rate, the turning point for me was realizing the depth of Jefferson's failure. I have always been a big Jefferson fan. He was a man of brilliance, the likes of which the world may never see again. How can we hope to succeed where he failed so miserably?

It cannot be otherwise. The deck is stacked against you, because the system naturally proceeds towards tyranny. You can slow it, but you can't stop it. For every step you take forward, you will be pushed two steps back. That is the immutable nature of government, because it is not based on truth and justice, but rather on brute force.

I apologize for sounding so negative, but again, what are these people doing to help "the cause"?  Someone like me who is generally opposed to completely open borders would do much more to further the cause of liberty than the people who are for "free everything" that only hypothesize about how things "should be" but do very little (if anything) to change the way things are.

What would you have them do? No one has the answer. Some have come to the realization that if we keep going where we're going, we'll end up where we are. (I apologize for the bumper sticker quote.) But the empire has a vested interest in not going away.

[Quantrill]

"No chance"?  Do you really mean "no chance"?

Honestly Caleb, I mean there is a 0 percent chance that things will suck even half as bad as they do now if 20,000 liberty-oriented people who vote move to NH.  I realize that the FSP does not specifically encourage 20k voters.  But if I thought that the people joining the FSP would not exercise their right to vote, then I wouldn't have joined the FSP.  Maybe my foolish mistake, I was signer #2 after all.

I don't see much good coming from people who espouse no gov't yet don't do much about it.  I will agree that 20,000 people who drive without licenses (a la Russell) would do even more good than 20k voters.  But again, the so-called anarchists are not really anarchists at all.  They may want no government, but I sure don't see them doing much of anything about it.  If they like the 'security' of the system, then they should humor themselves and participate in the system.

So, 20k voters versus however many people who want no government but still rely damn-near entirely on the system.  Who could affect the most positive change?

Dammit, if I hadn't been drinking tonight I wouldn't even be wasting my time arguing this point in cyberspace.  Ah well, we're all allowed to waste time now and then...