My Son: Klan Reformer

[KBCraig]

The General Court put forth a bill that would have gutted shall-issue concealed carry licensing in New Hampshire, and hundreds of people were drawn into the discussion, packing the statehouse lobby...

+1

[Lloyd Danforth]

When one of the posters on this forum told me he was an anarchist, in my mind I said "great.  That means you'll do nothing and 20 years from now you'll still be as much a part of the system as you are now."  So basically, unless you're like Russell who is acting almost entirely on principle, you are of very little help to those of us still trying to work within 'the system'.

There again, though, there is the corallary:  20 years from now, you too will still be within the system (unless you decide to leave it) and the system will be much, much more oppressive. Many a patriot has wasted an entire lifetime fighting the downward current of this system (think Thomas Jefferson).

At what point do we cash in our chips and say that the system itself is the problem?

As president Jefferson became part of the problem and initiated some of the worst parts of the system we have today.

[Caleb]

I wouldn't say that "the worst parts" are from Jefferson ... but yes, that is the nature of government. It tends to corrupt even the best of people.

Honestly Caleb, I mean there is a 0 percent chance that things will suck even half as bad as they do now if 20,000 liberty-oriented people who vote move to NH.  I realize that the FSP does not specifically encourage 20k voters.  But if I thought that the people joining the FSP would not exercise their right to vote, then I wouldn't have joined the FSP.  Maybe my foolish mistake, I was signer #2 after all.

The 20,000 voters won't make a difference. We can't even agree amongst ourselves. Mvpel, for instance, wants to invade as many countries as possible to establish global neocon hegemony. I want the feds to go bye bye and want to secede. Frank Chodorov wants to set up a Georgist society. Some people only want low taxes and gun rights, and are willing to sacrifice all other issues on the altar of Politics to achieve that, whereas for others gay marriage and the right to go nude trump all other issues. Shrewd politicians will do with us what they have always done:  played one group against the other, courted a specific part of the electorate at the expense of the others, so as to achieve their own power. You might make modest gains in some areas, but it will be by taking two steps back in other areas. Any actual forward progression will be made, not by political tactics, buy by the evolution of society, through which political events will also be carried along, albeit kicking and screaming.

And at some point, the globalists will stage another false flag operation to take away even more of your rights in such gigantic chunks that you'll spend your whole life trying to get back even a tenth part of your lost rights. It is the way of things.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I don't think Caleb is 'basking' in the security of the system.   20,000 people ignorring the government might have as much of an effect as 20,000 voters. 

[Quantrill]

I don't think Caleb is 'basking' in the security of the system.   20,000 people ignorring the government might have as much of an effect as 20,000 voters. 

I agree with this.  I already stated that 20k non-voting activists (i.e. people who ignored the government the way Russell does) would probably fare better than 20k voters.  But the problem is, as someone has already stated, what "actions" are these anarchists doing to further the cause?  A demonstration now and then?  Talking to people about their views?  Voting can have an immediate impact, as fellow PORCs have already been to town meetings and slashed local taxes and spending.  That is a positive effect.  If people are doing things that affect positive change, then great! 

But the anarchists who do nothing but talk about their utopian dream don't seem to be getting anywhere.  With the number of non-voting PORCs in NH, you would think there would be demonstrations every day of the week all over the state.  Or another way to put it, those of us who don't have the courage to drive around without a license can still do many positive things while working in the system. 

So again, let's work together.  Find the people who agree with the issues you are passionate about and do protests, talk to people, vote, call your representatives, write articles, and whatever else can be done.  At some point, I may drive around without a license.  I will still be exercising my right to vote. 

[dalebert]

The FSP has been careful to point out that 20,000 votes isn't enough to make a big difference for liberty. They're counting on 20,000 activists and they gave some examples. They're talking about running for office or working for pro-liberty campaigns, going door-to-door, etc. They're talking about people who show up and speak at town meetings against expantions of government. I think even anarchists can do that much without violating our principles. There are acts of civil disobediance that anarchists can do to raise people's awareness about the nature of government. There are protests to raise awareness. There are plenty of things that people can do besides vote.

Personally there are a few situations where I will vote but in most cases I will not. For instance, I'll vote against a measure that clearly expands the power and/or reach of government. I'll even vote for Ron Paul because he's such a unicorn amongst politicians.

Even anarchist ideals aside, I think you're putting way too much emphasis on voting as a means of change. A hundred visible and vocal activists have already proven useful whereas 20,000 more people who just show up to vote won't mean a hill of beans. We have to promote some powerful memes.

[Dreepa]

Even anarchist ideals aside, I think you're putting way too much emphasis on voting as a means of change. A hundred visible and vocal activists have already proven useful whereas 20,000 more people who just show up to vote won't mean a hill of beans. We have to promote some powerful memes.

A dozen people in a small town can have a HUGE influence.

Q  +1

[frisco]

The General Court put forth a bill that would have gutted shall-issue concealed carry licensing in New Hampshire, and hundreds of people were drawn into the discussion, packing the statehouse lobby and hallways thanks to activism by GO-NH, the NHLA, and others.

Exposing people to the concepts of liberty is definitely a positive.  As for the ends of maintaining your ability to ask permission for a peaceful act, that I'm not so sure about.

[mvpel]

A dozen people in a small town can have a HUGE influence.

Two people in one of the largest towns in New Hampshire (my wife and I, in Merrimack) cut the town budget by $1.5 million with our two votes.  The tally was 155 to 154 in the deliberative session.

[Quantrill]

A dozen people in a small town can have a HUGE influence.

Two people in one of the largest towns in New Hampshire (my wife and I, in Merrimack) cut the town budget by $1.5 million with our two votes.  The tally was 155 to 154 in the deliberative session.

AWESOME!




+1 for action

[MaineShark]

There's nothing to stop an anarchist from voting or "working within the system."  An anarchist rejects the system, so he cannot accept the "voting legitimizes the system" nonsense.  That is part of the system, and anyone who believes in it has implicitly accepted the system.

I will vote.  Usually, I will vote "none of the above," because I don't typically believe that any of the available candidates will actually reduce the government.  However, I would vote for someone like Ron Paul, because I believe that having someone like him for President would actually reduce the role of the government, and help us on the way to anarchy for all.  This will be a long process.  The State will not evaporate overnight.  The State will not evaporate in the next decade.  If we work really hard, maybe it will evaporate within a century, but I wouldn't place odds on that.

The short-term goal is to set the stage to allow that to happen.  Reduce the role of government in people's lives, so they realize that it is not truly "necessary," and only evil.  Not all people will recognize that quickly.  It will take time for the State to atrophy away.  We need to set up a social system by which that can happen.  Political/social chemotherapy, if you like analogies, to treat the cancer that is government.

Joe

[Lloyd Danforth]

I've been a 'voting' Anarchist since '72.  I've voted for any LP guy or lady running, every opportunity I have had.

[dalebert]

The initial post was a crappy analogy---read it and hoped that it was  really a turning point for some racist politician alive or long dead.... just pure donkeycrap....

What do you mean "donkeycrap"? If you vote, it's just like running for Grand Wizard of the Klan!

[lildog]

The initial post was a crappy analogy---read it and hoped that it was  really a turning point for some racist politician alive or long dead.... just pure donkeycrap....

What do you mean "donkeycrap"? If you vote, it's just like running for Grand Wizard of the Klan!

The key problem with the analogy is everyone outside the Klan would agree lynching is bad.  Only those in the clan would agree they are good.  With government most people outside the government officials (the Klan) feel the government is good.  Many feel there is too much of it but they feel it is over all something they need.

A better analogy would be like saying someone wanted a single scoop of ice cream as that was all they could eat or want.  Instead they are given only one option and that's a 4 gallon drum of ice cream which is far more then they ever wanted or needed and costs a lot more then they want to pay.

[Caleb]

 

I'm not so sure that "ice cream" is a fitting analogy for something as rancid as government. Maybe raw sewage would be a better analogy than ice cream.