If Ed Brown dies then so do I.

[Romak]

I'll tell you guys a story, take it as you may. About 8 years ago I moved to NH from NYC looking for a place that was more freedom oriented(not too hard to find being from NYC). My family was always big into guns as was I so I was also looking for a pro gun state as well. NH fit that mold and it still does. I looked into a lot of the big pro gun groups in the area and Ed Browns name kept coming up. So I decided to meet this fellow. I went up to his house which was in Lebanon at the time. From the get go he seemed like a man who starved for attention and like to pretend that he had this whole network of people throughout the country who would start a revolution as soon as he decided to release them. Almost every guy we walked by when we went downtown to check out his meeting room he would nod at and then tell me "Ya hes one of my men as well". I knew right off the bat he was full of himself. This deal with the tax issue is playing right into his dreams. Its the best possible situation for him. He gets all the attention and if he dies he feels as though he succeeds into starting his "revolution". He wants to be a martyr plain and simple. If you ask me he is doing more harm than good for those who want to remain free and want to be left alone. Believe me I am one of them. The job of US Marshalls is to bring to justice those who skip out on their sentence. I think they are showing tremendous resolve in letting them stay in their homes for as long as they have. I also think they should continue to wait him out, he will leave eventually. Im also opposed to the income tax, but we are working to get things changed. We didnt just decide one day not to pay after paying for the past 15 years of my life. How old is Ed Brown 63? well that means he paid for a good portion of his live as well. I went by his house to interview him back in April to get a feel of the situation and see if what I felt back then was how I feel now, and it was the same. He isnt a knight in shining armor, and to be honest he isnt a good individual to be speaking for me or any of my other fellow Patriots. If they decide to ban guns in the future and order us to turn them in than we've got a war on our hands, and we have the men to fight that war, but this situation isnt that. This is going to end bad for the Browns and its going to make a lot of our hard work getting law abiding Politicians elected go by the wayside.

[KBCraig]

If you have the right status you won't end up in their courtroom!

Bullets and chains don't care what your "status" is.

[Kat Kanning]

I'll tell you guys a story, take it as you may. About 8 years ago I moved to NH from NYC looking for a place that was more freedom oriented(not too hard to find being from NYC). My family was always big into guns as was I so I was also looking for a pro gun state as well. NH fit that mold and it still does. I looked into a lot of the big pro gun groups in the area and Ed Browns name kept coming up. So I decided to meet this fellow. I went up to his house which was in Lebanon at the time. From the get go he seemed like a man who starved for attention and like to pretend that he had this whole network of people throughout the country who would start a revolution as soon as he decided to release them. Almost every guy we walked by when we went downtown to check out his meeting room he would nod at and then tell me "Ya hes one of my men as well". I knew right off the bat he was full of himself. This deal with the tax issue is playing right into his dreams. Its the best possible situation for him. He gets all the attention and if he dies he feels as though he succeeds into starting his "revolution". He wants to be a martyr plain and simple. If you ask me he is doing more harm than good for those who want to remain free and want to be left alone. Believe me I am one of them. The job of US Marshalls is to bring to justice those who skip out on their sentence. I think they are showing tremendous resolve in letting them stay in their homes for as long as they have. I also think they should continue to wait him out, he will leave eventually. Im also opposed to the income tax, but we are working to get things changed. We didnt just decide one day not to pay after paying for the past 15 years of my life. How old is Ed Brown 63? well that means he paid for a good portion of his live as well. I went by his house to interview him back in April to get a feel of the situation and see if what I felt back then was how I feel now, and it was the same. He isnt a knight in shining armor, and to be honest he isnt a good individual to be speaking for me or any of my other fellow Patriots. If they decide to ban guns in the future and order us to turn them in than we've got a war on our hands, and we have the men to fight that war, but this situation isnt that. This is going to end bad for the Browns and its going to make a lot of our hard work getting law abiding Politicians elected go by the wayside.

I've never said he was a knight in shining armor, only that I don't want the feds to kill him.

[LordBaltimore]

Is it possible the Browns just didn't do their homework?
John

The law was shown to the Browns during the trial and multiple times after.  They have chosen to ignore it.

[LordBaltimore]

Nope, it's just that the judges won't allow the law to be read in their courtrooms.

Seriously.

To time to argue the law is before the jury trial begins.  Ed should have hired an attorney who knew how to fight and what the rules of the court were.  It's like performing your own brain surgery because you read about the technique on the internet.

[error]

Because, you know, juries shouldn't be allowed to weigh questions such as whether the law exists, or should exist.

[LordBaltimore]

From the get go he seemed like a man who starved for attention and like to pretend that he had this whole network of people throughout the country who would start a revolution as soon as he decided to release them.

When I first heard of his criminal trial in the news, I decided to research his background to see if I would support him or not.  This was an article I found on him from 1994.  It matches your description.

Defense Militia Builds NH Base
SHAWNE K. WICKHAM
New Hampshire Sunday News
Oct. 9, 1994

PLAINFIELD - Edward L. Brown, 52, is a consultant in the extermination business by trade. But the menace he is trying to warn people about these days is of the human variety.

Brown is the spokesman for the Constitution Defense Militia, one of numerous ''unorganized'' citizen militia groups forming around the country in response to what they say is a well-orchestrated and far-reaching conspiracy to deprive Americans of their liberty and even lives.

The New Hampshire Libertarian party will hold a special panel analysis on citizen militias at its annual convention in Merrimack on Oct. 15.

Brown can name names of conspirators - Bill Clinton, George Bush, Janet Reno, Mikhail Gorbachev - and of organizations - The Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the American Bar Association, the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the CIA and the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

He contends the deaths of religious cult members in Switzerland and Canada last week were ''another WACO,'' orchestrated by the CIA. And he believes even the baseball strike was part of a plot to squash anything American.

Brown likens the times we are living in to the years in Europe before World War II. He has 18 months worth of food stored in his basement, and a stockpile of weapons and ammunition. He believes something will trigger a federal takeover of private property, utilities, health facilities and the media, and said the most likely scenario is an economic collapse.

Brown estimated there are five million militia members across the country; in this state, there are 3,000 CDM members, men and women from all walks of life who are ''on standby to lock and load 24 hours a day right now.''

Brown warns there is a second Revolutionary War approaching. But he says this time the citizen patriots have AK-47s.

Brown, who says he is an agnostic, admits it's easy to dismiss him as a nut. He knows that's how the FBI, the Department of Defense and other federal agencies he calls regularly have him pegged.

He contends there are 130 detention centers set up around the country, including one at the former Pease Air Force Base, ready to imprison people like him who resist the government.

Gun control is at the center of the enemies' plan, he explained. He predicts ''blood in the streets'' if the government tries to confiscate guns here.

''There's two freight trains coming down the track full steam ahead. True American citizens like myself will die for my country. We will never release any firearms to the United States.''

An ad in the October 1994 issue of ''Soldier of Fortune magazine'' warns, ''It's Groundhog Day! For those of us living under the shadow of gun control...Hide your weapons WHILE YOU CAN!'' The ''Groundhog,'' an underground storage container big enough for four AR15's, two AK-47s and 2300 rounds of ammunition, costs $94.95.

Brown said the militia is setting up ''Constitutional courts'' in numerous states, including here in New Hampshire, ''for the purpose of taking back America.''

Who will be tried? ''Anybody who commits un-American activity. Anybody who has created insurrection or sedition or conspiracy against the American people.'' And what will the penalty be? ''Whatever the people decide.''

Brown only became involved in the CDM 11 months ago. But ever since he has been unable to enjoy the things he used to, like golfing and fishing.

Brown believes the conspiracy is world-wide; references to a ''New World Order'' set off alarms in militia members. He thinks a confrontation is ''imminent'' and he believes the year 2000 has special significance for ''the bad guys.''

''From now on, as an American citizen under my Constitution, nobody but nobody is going to come into my country and take it down. Nobody's going to destroy that Constitution. And the enemy is within.''

He said the militia has declared New Hampshire a ''free zone,'' neutral territory in which the federal government has no authority. ''All we're looking for is as many people get warned as possible, to protect as many lives as we can before this thing goes down.''

''Freedom is not free. Thomas Jefferson told us every 20 years a little patriot blood must be shed to kill some of the tyrants and keep them in line. We have not done this since the Civil War.''

Brown said he sees no way the conflict will end except in violence. ''Because these people will not quit. The window of oppportunity for them as it approaches is closing because people like me are rising. And the hope is we can open our window more than theirs, so we can swallow them before they swallow us.''

I've been watching the Brown case like a hawk since January.  For the most part, it's the same kind of fascination you get from watching a train wreck.  What I've found most interesting is the threats of violence not only from Ed, but from several supporters on this and other forums.  

And while I think its a shame that people like Dada and the free staters are willing to set themselves back considerably by embracing the kook factor with open arms, it's been with sheer horror that I've been watching Ron Paul's name and reputation get dragged into this train wreck.  

[citizen_142002]

Looking at his statements I don't think he explicitly threatened the feds families, but to be honest I can't tell whether that was the intention of the remarks or not.
If Ed wants to stay on his property and resist anyone who comes to arrest him, I don't have anything bad to say about that. It's his life, his property, and the people who go in to get him have free will and know the risk. If that was his intention I could say I support him, but some of these remarks trouble me.
I think he has made allusions to having people take out the judge and prosecutor. I know that the US Marshals families are getting police escorts if they live in the state. I'm not sure he meant to threaten them,  but when he got on about destroying their "seed", that's how I took it. It could be a spin job, but I've heard him and his supporters say similar things and they make me rather uncomfortable. I don't think he's stable, and if he has made any of these statements he crossed the line.

Assasinating judges or targeting people's wives and children is an abhorrent and fits the truest definition of terrorism. You do not threaten innocent people.

Personally this all has me backing away from Ed, and unless he clarifies his position publically, he's getting no more kind words from me. He called for armed supporters, and I was OK with that. If he was going to arm himself and use force only if men with guns to come and get him that was OK with me. If he wanted to muster a militia on the commons at Lebanon, I wouldn't be happy, but I couldn't say he wouldn't have some moral justification, but when you start talking about killing unarmed people to terrorize their peers into changing their ways, that is unacceptable.
In fact I would be inclined to phone the sheriff to see if he might want to deputize me so that I could give some help in apprehending such a person.

I'm not 100% clear on Ed's position, but until he makes himself clear that he isn't calling for children to be murdered and civilians to be targeted with assination I would suggest that people put some distance between him and themselves.

It's not Ed I worry about actually doing anything, but I think some of his really militant supporters could do something really dumb. Like what McVeigh did in answer to Waco.

[Romak]

First off I dont believe for a second that Mcveigh was alone in OKC. Same as 9/11 in my opinion, the feds knew it was going down and let it happen because they actually benefitted from it. Men in power seeking more power will do some pretty amazing things, and both OKC and 9/11 has given them more power than they could possibly imagine. That being said I completely agree with that take on Ed Brown. His actions have basically threatened family members of US Marshalls, thats why Im amazed they are showing the patience that they are. If it was me like I said dont know if I could hold back someone saying my wife and kids may die if he dies. He crossed the line. Not saying they should kill him, that would have horrible consiquences across the board. Personally I would hate to be the Marshall in charge of this one. But since he has yet to actually harm anyone else I can not support them going in with guns blazing, think it would be a huge mistake. Again their job is to aprehend fugitives and in this case Ed and his wife are fugitives no matter what you may think of the law. Its not like they banned guns and hes holding out, that would be a direct contradiction of the Constitution and I would probably be there with him right now, but this case is different. I agree with all of those who said he should've thought this out better and planned better in terms of consulting with a lawyer and saying look this is what I want to do, do I stand a chance in hell? I personally am working towards electing people who want to seriously reduce or abolish income taxes all together, thats the legal way to change things. And thats where I stand.

[LordBaltimore]

Because, you know, juries shouldn't be allowed to weigh questions such as whether the law exists, or should exist.

You can disagree with the Supreme Court until the cows come home.  It doesn't change the Supreme Court's  decisions or the fact that there are rules that the District Courts follow.

Bucking the system is a noble cause, but there are consequences for civil disobedience.  

For example, Russell drives without a license because he thinks such licensing laws are stupid.  He doesn't deny that the licensing laws exist.  He breaks them openly and accepts the consequences.  That's a powerful statement.

Ed wants the benefits of civil disobediance (keeping his $1.8 million without losing a third to taxes) without any consequences (criminal charges and losing his building to the IRS).  There's no powerful statement there at all.
The American public will label him a tax cheat, not a hero, because his act of civil disobedience just happened to coincide with the fattening of pocket book (luxury hilltop home in this case).  

If federal employees die while trying to arrest him, he will be labeled a cop killer in addition to being a tax cheat.  If supporters hunt down judges and prosecutors after Ed's arrest or death, he and the supporters will be labeled as revenge killers and murderers.  

If you think I'm wrong, go look up the recent murder trial of former New Hampshire native Steven Bixby. He got the death penalty for killing two cops who tried to evict him in an emminent domain case in South Carolina.  Neither the jury nor the public was impressed by Bixby citing the NH Constitution in his defense or his "live free or die" refrain.

There are no winning scenarios to the Ed Brown situation.  Only varying degrees of public relations fire balls and a number of local supporters fanning the flames.

I also find the situation fundamentally sad.  I think Ed (and lately Elaine) have been grasping at any straws they can (the Body of the Lord guru Sonny, the David Clarence "notary is the highest public official in the land, the Illuminati crap, etc) trying to find a way out of their situation and trying to make this tragedy about something bigger than not paying income taxes.  Ed has threatened an armed standoff before - over property taxes a couple of years ago - and backed off when it came time to take the stand.  But he's a really proud man who gets off on attention, and the presence of press and supporters has made it impossible for him to back down now.  As a result, his prison sentence has jumped from roughly two years to four, and he believes that the show of support he's received from locals means that millions of people are finally willing to engage in a violent revolution in the name of Ed Brown, and his ego finds that prospect irresistable.

[citizen_142002]

Well respectfully I don't give a damn about PR, but I do care what Ed Brown's intentions are. It would make a fundemental difference in how I view this situation.

I do think that Ed's theories are unhelpful, but he has a right to his opinions.

[Henry]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00000862----000-.html

§ 862. Income from sources without the United States

(a) Gross income from sources without United States
The following items of gross income shall be treated as income from sources without the United States:
(1) interest other than that derived from sources within the United States as provided in section 861 (a)(1);
(2) dividends other than those derived from sources within the United States as provided in section 861 (a)(2);
(3) compensation for labor or personal services performed without the United States;
(4) rentals or royalties from property located without the United States or from any interest in such property, including rentals or royalties for the use of or for the privilege of using without the United States patents, copyrights, secret processes and formulas, good will, trade-marks, trade brands, franchises, and other like properties;
(5) gains, profits, and income from the sale or exchange of real property located without the United States;
(6) gains, profits, and income derived from the purchase of inventory property (within the meaning of section 865 (i)(1)) within the United States and its sale or exchange without the United States;
(7) underwriting income other than that derived from sources within the United States as provided in section 861 (a)(7); and
( gains, profits, and income from the disposition of a United States real property interest (as defined in section 897 (c)) when the real property is located in the Virgin Islands.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/usc_sec_26_00000865----000-.html

§ 865. Source rules for personal property sales

(a) General rule
Except as otherwise provided in this section, income from the sale of personal property—
(1) by a United States resident shall be sourced in the United States, or
(2) by a nonresident shall be sourced outside the United States.


(g)  United States resident; nonresident
For purposes of this section—
(1) In general
Except as otherwise provided in this subsection—
(A) United States resident
The term "United States resident" means—
(i) any individual who—
(I) is a United States citizen or a resident alien and does not have a tax home (as defined in section 911 (d)(3)) in a foreign country, or
(II) is a nonresident alien and has a tax home (as so defined) in the United States, and
(ii) any corporation, trust, or estate which is a United States person (as defined in section 7701 (a)(30)).
(B) Nonresident
The term "nonresident" means any person other than a United States resident.[/b]


Maybe the law does exist and it's just that they can't show it to us because their house of cards will all fall down.

Is it possible the Browns just didn't do their homework?

John

You do more homework. The law as it's written and as you quote applies only to "United States persons," not to Americans, and you MUST learn the law's own definitions for terms like "U.S. Citizen," and "U.S. person," i.e., residents of the District of Columbia or one of their federal territories or those who claim to be citizens of the federal government through use of their products like the ss number. The Feds have for the past 200 years tried to inch their jurisdiction onto us. For the federal income tax their enforcing their own laws incorrectly. There is a federal income tax, but it doesn't apply to Americans, only to U.S. persons. You can't discuss legal matters without using the language as it's defined in the law, which is way different than common usage. Also the term "income" and "wages" are way way different than what they are commonly understood to mean. Here's a good place to start - takes about 20 minutes http://www.originalintent.org/edu/fedincometax.php

[KBCraig]

I do think that Ed's theories are unhelpful, but he has a right to his opinions.

It's especially unhelpful that his theories are constantly shifting. His is not a battle borne out of bedrock principles.

But as Kat said, I still don't want to see him killed over it, no matter what his legal theory du jour happens to be.

Kevin

[citizen_142002]

I'm not really concerned with his weird theories or the religion thing. It was some of the comments that were pushing the envelope with regard to using violence on people beyond those 'coming to get him'.
I was listening to the broadcast live when the first incident was taking place and someone calling in support of Ed mentioned that these feds "have families" and maybe they won't think this is worth their lives. I think at that point Ed's phone had died so there was no way to hear his response, but the host didn't say one word to admonish the caller. It makes me wonder when Ed's contacts are people who are fine and dandy with that kind of talk.
I'd really like to do some more digging though and not rush to judgement.

What's the status of things up there? I heard the power has been cut and they might be posturing for another raid.

[CNHT]

NO ONE thinks the Browns should be killed or incarcerated over this. They are being used as an example, during an election cycle. They did the same thing when Buchanan ran, and will use it to discredit anyone who is against the IRS, etc. by linking them with 'kooks'. It is predictable and it is purposeful and intended to get people off message. To wit, the Browns have been doing this for YEARS, so how come the feds have just decided to go after them NOW? Think about it!

People should be even MORE indignant when they see how the law is enforced for SOME but will not be enforced for ALL...which is somehow being ignored.

Bush Amnesty to Pardon Illegal Alien Child Molesters, Gang Members & Tax Evaders

"The Feds can use guns, tanks, planes and drones against a peaceful, self-sustaining elderly couple who simply want to be left alone but they can't manage to protect the borders and are getting ready to grant tax amnesty to millions of illegal aliens."

http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2007/06/12/bush-amnesty-to-pardon-illegal-alien-child-molesters-gang-members-tax-evaders/