Xenophobe police chief in New Ipswitch?

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Nothing wrong with ending welfare completely, that would be my goal as well! But you have to do that FIRST. Then you can talk about open borders. Sadlly I don't see it happening, ending welfare, anytime soon. Therefore, we must proceed on reality, not what we wish to be.

That is exactly how I feel about the situation as well.  Ending welfare fraud, and then ending welfare completely isn't going to happen.

I am all for going at the cause instead of slapping a bandage on the symptom.  However, the cause doesn't originate in our own country, and there is little we can do to affect that.  Unless we start withholding any aid to Mexico and other countries for each illegal Mexican and other citizen we catch here illegally.  To the tune of $5,000.00 each, perhaps?  Oh, but then we'd be taken to World Court again. 

Taxpayers in some states are already paying MORE for each illegal to receive free medical care, food and other welfare than they are paying for themselves!  Over 80 hospitals have closed in southern CA because they could not handle the drain.  How libertarian is it to expect doctors to provide their services for free?  How upside-down can we get? 

[CNHT]

I agree, up to a point. If you are advocating something I oppose, I will promote my position.
It is great to find things we agree on, however.?

Though I may not agree with your opinion, I will defend to the death your right to express it.

[tracysaboe]

I won't be able to fully support open boarders untill the welfare and warfare states are thuroughly dismantalled  -- including government ownership of the roads. We're not going to get liberty back by allowing more people who'll vote for socialism in the country.

Tracy

[FTL_Ian]

Welfare can and will be ended.  It will not be easy, but then I didn't sign up for the FSP expecting a cakewalk.

[Russell Kanning]

I agree, up to a point. If you are advocating something I oppose, I will promote my position.
It is great to find things we agree on, however." 

Though I may not agree with your opinion, I will defend to the death your right to express it.

That is great Jane.....I don't think I am willing to die, so that AlanM can express himself....have you heard some of his Shorty Dawkins stories?

[Russell Kanning]

Put me down for:

end welfare
make it easy to move

just don't let the guys in who are wearing sacred undergarments and chanting something in aramaic

[CNHT]

That is great Jane.....I don't think I am willing to die, so that AlanM can express himself....have you heard some of his Shorty Dawkins stories?

LOL Russell it's just an expression but I hoped it made my point.

I see what you are all saying that folks should be able to move around freely but do you really think we can ever end welfare without some sort of revolt? How do you know if immigrants are terrorists or not?

[CNHT]

That is exactly how I feel about the situation as well.? Ending welfare fraud, and then ending welfare completely isn't going to happen.

I am all for going at the cause instead of slapping a bandage on the symptom.? However, the cause doesn't originate in our own country, and there is little we can do to affect that.? Unless we start withholding any aid to Mexico and other countries for each illegal Mexican and other citizen we catch here illegally.? To the tune of $5,000.00 each, perhaps?? Oh, but then we'd be taken to World Court again.?

Taxpayers in some states are already paying MORE for each illegal to receive free medical care, food and other welfare than they are paying for themselves!? Over 80 hospitals have closed in southern CA because they could not handle the drain.? How libertarian is it to expect doctors to provide their services for free?? How upside-down can we get??

I know and understand this perfectly. What I don't understand is how people calling themselves 'libertarians' can support open borders in light of the reality which you have described. It does seem a bit upside down for folks who believe in self-reliance seeing as open borders would bring in more and more people who are NOT self-reliant.

[I think I know who this poster is...did I just meet you at the pink place recently?]

[Russell Kanning]

If my goal is to minimize or eliminate government.....what borders would there be to defend?

I don't see any way to get rid of welfare without it being a big deal....I just think we should do it anyways. It just is not right to take from some and give to others.

It is hard to tell who will come in and "support" themselves and it is also hard to tell who will blow up buildings.

It used to drive me crazy when some college friends had trouble getting student visas to come to college from places like Germany, South Africa, Argentina, and Columbia and people flood into California every day from Mexico and many go straight to various government agencies to start living off of the rest of us. It is some consolation now, since I don't pay very many taxes....but it isn't right.

[CNHT]

If my goal is to minimize or eliminate government.....what borders would there be to defend?

Well the US Constitution does allow for the defense of the borders. You are a 'one-worlder'? Somehow I did not think that fit in with the libertarian philosophy. It's not healthy for no diversity of countries because there would then be a breeding ground for totalitarianism and no place else to run.

I don't see any way to get rid of welfare without it being a big deal....I just think we should do it anyways. It just is not right to take from some and give to others.

It is hard to tell who will come in and "support" themselves and it is also hard to tell who will blow up buildings.

You're right about welfare, I think we all feel that way. And as long as they are streaming in, it would be totally irresponsible to NOT check for terrorism.

It used to drive me crazy when some college friends had trouble getting student visas to come to college from places like Germany, South Africa, Argentina, and Columbia and people flood into California every day from Mexico and many go straight to various government agencies to start living off of the rest of us. It is some consolation now, since I don't pay very many taxes....but it isn't right.

Of course! But let's not make it worse by throwing out the baby with the bath water.

PS - did you get my emails about that guy on the Monadnock list? I hope I nipped it, but he scared me there for a while!

[LiveFreeOrDie]

[I think I know who this poster is...did I just meet you at the pink place recently?]

Mmm... pink place, pink place... Nope, don't think so!   But Hi anyway! 

[Russell Kanning]

I don't think a one world government would be a good idea.....how about a world without government?

I also don't think the constitution should run our lives.

[tracysaboe]

Welfare can and will be ended.  It will not be easy, but then I didn't sign up for the FSP expecting a cakewalk.

When it comes to this issue though, sometimes I think we need to have a proper order of opporations. Wait untill after welfare is ended and affirmative action laws (Which scare employers into highering immigrants, even if they aren't as good -- that's why conservatives percieve them as stealing jobs I think.) etc, untill the boarders are completely opened. Is that not just to the people trying to come across now? Perhaps, but at the same token the "taxpayers" are the owners of pulic property around here, so in some respects a state immigration polocy in nothing but enforcing property rights. (Of course, it doesn't legitimately own it, and in a stateless society you'd probably also have public property, and unclaimed property, etc. so the analagy breaks down, but anyway.)

Tracy

[FTL_Ian]

What I don't understand is how people calling themselves 'libertarians' can support open borders in light of the reality which you have described. It does seem a bit upside down for folks who believe in self-reliance seeing as open borders would bring in more and more people who are NOT self-reliant.

Allow me to clarify.  As a Libertarian, I don't believe in the use of force to achieve political or social goals.  Simple.

It's defeatist to suggest that we won't succeed in abolishing welfare.  Just because you don't believe it possible doesn't make it that way.  We'll do it with or without you, so hopefully you'll help, considering you don't like it either...

[LiveFreeOrDie]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/223556_immig10.html?source=rss

"The Bush administration said yesterday that it would start paying hospitals and doctors for providing emergency care to illegal immigrants.

The money, totaling $1 billion, will be available for services provided from today through September 2008. Congress provided the money as part of the 2003 law that expanded Medicare to cover prescription drugs, but the new payments have nothing to do with the Medicare program.
[...]
The largest allocations this fiscal year are going to California, which will receive $70.8 million; Texas, $46 million; Arizona, $45 million; New York, $12.3 million; Illinois, $10.3 million; Florida, $8.7 million; and New Mexico, $5.1 million."

Fork it over.  Fork yourself.