Civil Disobedience

[SethCohn]

At the Seacoast Porcupines meeting today, I announced these civil disobedience ideas and talked about how the licensing idea is the first one we're going to do.  Everyone was VERY, VERY supportive of the idea!  They were even EXCITED about it!!!  Many people said they'd help us out by bringing more people, contacting the media, and more.

Mike, I was there, and I wouldn't describe _everyone_ as "very very"supportive....  You heard a lot of concern about the risk, and support in terms of helping _you_ as you described.  Someone reading the 'very very' might think that others said "Great idea, I'll do it too', which is not what happened.  You have a lot of people who are willing to see _you_ do this, it's your risk.  I'm fine with civil disobedience, if you are making your point clearly and it's a way to demonstrate the problem.

Let's be realistic, first and foremost.   Unless you have lots of press, make your complaint about licensing crystal clear (which is hard to do with the press/media so soundbyte focused these days), and real attention from the powers that be, you are lighting yourself on fire (ala buddhist monks) with little payback in the long run....

I remain concerned that far too many of the activists on this forum are too focused on 'theatre' tactics, and miss the fact that NH has some of the most open politics and access in the world, and 'theatre' isn't needed to get access to the right people.  In other states, you have no access, so theatre is the only way to gain attention... that's just not true in NH.  Theatre has a place... don't get me wrong... I'm not saying 'no theatre', but what I see is "theatre first because theatre's 'fun', who wants that boring politics crap?"...

Sorry to seem to be throwing any cold water here, but I'm seeing the same pattern here as elsewhere on this forum: little attention to what moves a question/issue forward (in the real world of NH) and lots of focus on "We'll show them!"  Somebody pointing that out, even if it's ignored, is important to me.  I'm sure the same folks as usual will scorn that advice, but at least it's been said.

[Russell Kanning]

I don't think you can put out the flame of Mike's passion with your cold water.
I want radical change...now!
Our open accessible political system in NH has led to minimum wages, licensing barbers, property taxes, zoning......
I want this system to leave people alone to work, build and live as they see fit.
NH is better than other places in the US, but our system of coercion is unacceptable.

[cathleeninnh]

There is a place for all kinds of activism. It has pretty much been decided that a coordinated effort for FSP movers would be suicide. Yes, we may be less efficient this way, but there are definite benefits from the theatrics.

I think our biggest challenge in NH is the populace, not the politics. As I said at the tax protest, we may not reduce taxes by protesting but we are sowing the seeds of freedom in a very fertile ground. It takes lots of exposure to get across the need for more freedom not less. Millions and millions of exposures.

Lets keep it up.

Cathleen

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm an inclusive Porc.  I believe in political and non-political methods of getting things done.  I'm willing to bet that no large percentage of people who signed the SOI, plan to be involved in politics in NH, not even the LP, muchless, with non-Rino republicans.

Our 'Theater Tactics' in Hampton and the Flag Burning in Keene and to some extent, Freeing JP from Mass., has gotten us more attention than studying proposed legislation and, even, speaking, as individuals, at the statehouse.

Furthermore, I think civil disobedience works best when the laws are broken,  enmass, by a large number of people, at the same time.  This draws Press attention and make it difficult  for the police to perform arrests.

But, if you can't get one crowd to shampoo another crowd in a parking lot, then, I'm all for Mike and Russell and not me to get arrested.

[SethCohn]

I agree with Cathleen's comments completely.

I'm an inclusive Porc.  I believe in political and non-political methods of getting things done.  I'm willing to bet that no large percentage of people who signed the SOI, plan to be involved in politics in NH, not even the LP, muchless, with non-Rino republicans.

Then the percentage of people who would aren't going to be as effective as they could be.  That's my major point.  I'm not saying 'only' politics, ok?

Our 'Theater Tactics' in Hampton and the Flag Burning in Keene and to some extent, Freeing JP from Mass., has gotten us more attention than studying proposed legislation and, even, speaking, as individuals, at the statehouse.

Good examples.

I see Hampton as a win-win (hard to be on the wrong of side of helping old people against big bad zoning)
I see Freeing JP as a PR stunt: no real reality to it, so it's pure PR value only.
I see the Flag Burning (for a variety of reasons) as an example of the sort of 'potential backfire' (so to speak) that could happen (but didn't happen with the Flag Burning, this time, thank god, and knock on wood in the future.)

So out of the 3, only one of those has a 'negative aspect'...  Civic Disobedience can, as you pointed out, enmass, be a very different thing from just one or two people doing it...  I realize that the people least likely to listen here are the ones most likely to be the ones involved, I realize that.... probably shouting into the winds and going unheard...

[Michael Fisher]

I don't think you can put out the flame of Mike's passion with your cold water.

Not in the least bit!

I want radical change...now!
Our open accessible political system in NH has led to minimum wages, licensing barbers, property taxes, zoning......
I want this system to leave people alone to work, build and live as they see fit.
NH is better than other places in the US, but our system of coercion is unacceptable.

Exactly.

Seth, most people at the meeting were very supportive of the idea, and several expressed the will to help organize.? Some were confused about the risks or what civil disobedience is, and some thought that we should try to mix the civil disobedience ideas together, which is a bad idea, but that can be expected.

Maybe later on, we can have more people participate in the actual disobedience aspect.? For now, that is not necessary.? We can start with one person, myself, and go from there.? I'm willing to take the risk in order to see the great return that is possible from it.? All I need is some support.

All this talk about the game of politics, and the view that the end justifies the means, is of no interest to me.? Sorry if this offends you, but my principles do not accept the existence of government, nor do they accept playing the corrupt and utterly disgusting game of politics, regardless of the end that is used to justify it.

We can take positive, peaceful, non-violent, non-cooperative action to make great changes in the name of freedom.? This is a legitimate method of change!

[Michael Fisher]

If I am not busy that day....maybe I can be a paying customer.

Maybe someone will have to file a complaint with the NH Board of Cosmotology about what is going on outside.

Alright, then I guess it's Dada and myself that will be arrested. 

We should definitely have someone file a formal complaint to the BoC during the civil disobedience!  That's a brilliant idea!

[Michael Fisher]

Will you except FRN$ ? .... or do we pay in silver?

Yeah, we'll accept Federal Reserve Notes... for now.    We don't want to mix ideas together or people will be confused!

[Michael Fisher]

-Publicly sell hard liquor to adults over 21.? Violation of New Hampshire law.

New Hampshire runs a statewide monopoly on liquor sales in order to raise millions of dollars in funds for the state.? We can challenge this law and defeat it.? We may wish to obtain a license to sell alcohol because we are not challenging that particular law, we are directly challenging New Hampshire's monopoly on the retail sales of hard liquor.

I personally think this is a MUCH better idea to start with than selling alcohol to adults 18-20 years old.? We can do that one a little later and we'll receive a lot of support from college students.

I also like this idea. Why would we want a license to sell alcohol? Why not go against the whole system?

Hmmm... good point.  Would it be better to challenge the entire idea of alcohol as a controlled substance?  That is what it would mean to have no license to sell alcohol.

Or would it be better to only challenge the idea of New Hampshire's monopoly on liquor?  I'm still leaning toward challenging only the liquor monopoly AT FIRST.  Later, maybe if successful fightning against the monopoly, we could probably challenge the entire system.  Or maybe we should just challenge the whole thing to begin with.

I don't know... there's no written rule that you have to challenge one thing at a time.  I'm really not sure.  I'm new to this stuff.  What do you think?

[Russell Kanning]

I was not questioning your one thing at a time idea.....I just like changing the whole idea at once....it is more exciting.

[Pat McCotter]

Okay.? I've spent time looking through the actual US Code, but cannot find the exact law prohibiting private mail carriers.

Can anyone verify that this is illegal by citing the exact law?? Does anyone know of any cases where private mail carriers have been shut down?

Publication 542 (PDF) - Understanding the Public (oops) Private Express Statutes is a PDF document explaining the postal monopoly and when it can be suspended.


Also, found while researching this:
39 USC 401(9) Eminent Domain by the USPS
The Postal Service shall have the following general powers:
(9) to exercise, in the name of the United States, the right of
? ? eminent domain for the furtherance of its official purposes; ...

[Lloyd Danforth]

If I am not busy that day....maybe I can be a paying customer.

Maybe someone will have to file a complaint with the NH Board of Cosmotology about what is going on outside.

Alright, then I guess it's Dada and myself that will be arrested.?

We should definitely have someone file a formal complaint to the BoC during the civil disobedience!? That's a brilliant idea!

Hey!  Whats this crap?  I thought Russell was in a hurry to get arrested, Too!

[Michael Fisher]

Hey!? Whats this crap?? I thought Russell was in a hurry to get arrested, Too!

I think this idea really isn't his thing.? ?

After this one works out well, the next ones will be more extreme and hopefully he'll like those ideas better and want to join in!

I think Russell said he likes the mail idea and the alcohol sales idea.? One of those must be next.? I'm leaning toward mail.? The USPS' monopoly on first and third class mail is a house of cards.? Underneath it all, it has a very fragile base - one paragraph written in "postal code" in 1872.? We can and will eliminate their monopoly on mail.? It's only a matter of time now that we've figured out how we can fight them.?

[Dave Ridley]

I tend to favor doing it on a saturday for turnout purposes, but I could be wrong.

Oh another advantage is they would have trouble getting ahold of bureaucrats to speak up for the other side of the story.

If we could get decent numbers it realliy would be cool in biz hours tho....

[FTL_Ian]

Despite what Mr. Cohn has to say, I think you guys are doing an awesome job.  The political players in NH are doing virtually nothing visible (that I'm aware of) to promote Liberty in NH.  You guys are.

We're watching...  this is exciting!
Ian