Lauren Canario arrested and possibly Kat also

[Lloyd Danforth]

If the idea of supporting torture doesn't start people thinking about where the money they give to the government goes, what will?

[Sam Adams]

The problem is that people have been indoctrinated to believe that the only ones getting "tortured" are the "bad guys," and that it is "okay" to torture them. It isn't that I think "torture" is too strong. On the contrary, I think it is too weak, specifically because people think that it is only "evil terrorists" that are the recipients and they don't see themselves as the victims of government. Also, many, many people justify the torture of people whom they believe to employ even worse methods, simply because they have been taught to be guided by irrational fear.

The other thing is that they know that not all their tax dollars go for torture ("Just a little bit of them."), and that the rest goes to do "good things" for them. Somehow they must be re-educated to see how they are the victims of that government force in their daily lives. It isn't the knowledge of the torture of "bad guys" that will motivate people, it is the awakening to the realities of their own personal slave status. Historically, remote injustices are the territory of saints and crusaders, and personally-experienced injustices are the breeding grounds of revolutions.

People won't "risk" themselves and their families on behalf of faceless "terrorists." That's the reality of the human condition. I think it's our job to show them HOW unbridled government force affects THEM every day of their lives.

JMHO

[Russell Kanning]

If the idea of supporting torture doesn't start people thinking about where the money they give to the government goes, what will?

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AP) - Twice a day at the U.S. military prison here, Abdul Rahman Shalabi and Zaid Salim Zuhair Ahmed are strapped down in padded restraint chairs and flexible yellow tubes are inserted through their noses and throats. Milky nutritional supplements, mixed with water and olive oil to add calories and ease constipation, pour into their stomachs.

If you pay Federal Taxes .... this is your tax $s at work.

[Sam Adams]

And SADLY, that just about draws a yawn from about 99% of the population.

WE HERE know that #1 that's just plain evil, and #2 we could be next in line. But Joe Sixpack responds with, "Good! I hope they get the rest of those evil bastards and do the same to them." That's not pretty, but it is the reality we live with. If you walk among them, you will hear it too. They fear the unknown, particularly if those unknowns have strange names and customs and if they believe the bad guys are coming for them.

It isn't enough for us to be right, we must also be effective.

[FTL_Ian]

I just finished watching Lauren's 10 minute rough cut of the events surrounding the arrest, and it is very good.      

Look for a Youtube version coming soon.   

[Kat Kanning]

It isn't enough for us to be right, we must also be effective.

We?

[Russell Kanning]

In my experience only a small % like defending torture .... and only in "yell and drive off" situations. For others it is very sobering.
The Federal employees try to ignore it.

Most people want to distance themselves from it.

[error]

Most people want to distance themselves from it.

It's hard to distance yourself from it when it appears on your every paystub. Perhaps a sign showing a giant paycheck could be used in some context...

[dalebert]

It's hard to distance yourself from it when it appears on your every paystub. Perhaps a sign showing a giant paycheck could be used in some context...

2nded, Error. I was thinking of this recently in the form of a tax bill where what you're paying for is itemized.

Quick, off the top of my head example that should be expanded upon with research:

Maintaining imperialist bases in other people's countries: $1 trillion
Indoctrinating people into being submissive to their aggressive government: $400 billion
War on Drugs and making criminals out of innocent people: $50 billion

Stealing half of your hard-earned money and using it to keep you enslaved under the iron hand of government: Priceless

EDIT: This msg got truncated for some reason. Fixing.

[Russell Kanning]

Most people want to distance themselves from it.

It's hard to distance yourself from it when it appears on your every paystub. Perhaps a sign showing a giant paycheck could be used in some context...

I was talking about "torture"

[Sam Adams]

Kat,

The "we" was in reference to libertarian activists in general, not to a particular event or events. Hopefully, people are employing multiple methods in pursuit of the common goal of less government. I don't believe that any one of those methods is inherently better than any other. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood.

Certainly, if people believe that focusing on "torture" will educate and motivate potential converts, that avenue should be pursued. In this case we have a huge segment of the population who gladly pay their taxes (and increases) specifically to get government "protection" to make them "safe" from terrorists. They are not sympathetic to the torture issue, and at an optimum they consider it ugly, but necessary, collateral damage.

I don't think the torture issue should be discounted or ignored. I just think that government does a whole lot of other evil stuff that negatively impacts individuals on a daily basis, and that it wouldn't hurt to point those out as well.

[Brock]

If the idea of supporting torture doesn't start people thinking about where the money they give to the government goes, what will?

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AP) - Twice a day at the U.S. military prison here, Abdul Rahman Shalabi and Zaid Salim Zuhair Ahmed are strapped down in padded restraint chairs and flexible yellow tubes are inserted through their noses and throats. Milky nutritional supplements, mixed with water and olive oil to add calories and ease constipation, pour into their stomachs.

If you pay Federal Taxes .... this is your tax $s at work.

At least you know their liver won't be sold at a restaurant in Chicago.

[error]

It's hard to distance yourself from it when it appears on your every paystub. Perhaps a sign showing a giant paycheck could be used in some context...

I was talking about "torture"

I know. And I was talking about making torture visible on your paystub.

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[Russell Kanning]

I don't think the torture issue should be discounted or ignored. I just think that government does a whole lot of other evil stuff that negatively impacts individuals on a daily basis, and that it wouldn't hurt to point those out as well.

Well .... when you show up to the IRS office with your sign .... you can inform people about all that other evil stuff the government does. I think that will be wonderful.

[TackleTheWorld]

Video of the event
Thanks for the camera work FTL_Ian