Comments and arguments for flat economy being instutituted...

[lordmetroid]

I talked to a friend of mine yesterday... An EVIL collectivist authoritarian friend he is in the field of research and taking a doctorate.
We discussed the process of getting fundation for the research and I would like to ask you what your take on some of these issues are.

Apperently getting funding takes about a month of writing shit that really doesn't say much but uses hyped words like nano-technology or cancer or whatever. He proposed to give everyone person in the field an equal chunck of money and if they need more money they need to team up. I tried to explain the economics of giving an equal sum of money to everyone would drive prices up as it would be guarenteed to have money for spending and I tried to explain that the money isn't value in itself but rather the products. I even tried pitching him the metaphore of giving everyone in Sweden a lump of money for him to easier picture the economic outcome. But it didn't stick and he brushed it off as there would be different economic rules apply for the idiotic masses.

He insisted that it would be better than wasteing research time of month worth writing useless fundraising letters to people who have no idea about research and doesn't contain anything relevant.

He complained about the politics in the field that it really is corrupt and people was always scheming and all crazy kind of things. But as I tried to explain to him that the solution would be to make it all private he objected. Companies wouldn't do fundamental ground research as there is no application that can be profitable and it takes decades. Companies wouldn't invest in that as they look for profit within a monthly basis.

I don't know what the heck I could have argued for privatization, he almost had me convienced if it wasn't total economic insanity and evil oppression.

[jsorens]

Basic research is a real problem for utilitarian libertarians. The private sector won't do much of it. So you have a choice:

1) Advocate government funding on utilitarian grounds;
2) Oppose government funding on libertarian grounds & accept the inefficiency.

I choose the latter myself. But that can be kind of hard to explain to people.

[error]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

[David]

I agree with error.  It is the same reason we do not have many private libraries, it is near impossible to compete with something that is 'free' to the end user. 

[lordmetroid]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done. It is kind of silly but he is collectivist authoritarian by informed choice. He even call himself *menacing voice* EVIL *end voice*.

But what I really would want to know, how would the market react if everyone got a set lump of money?

[error]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

[EthanAllen]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

As if those weren't built on past knowledge that was freely accessible as part of the social commons? I mean how would people freely communicate if not using a language that was socially, not individually, created?

[Spencer]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

As if those weren't built on past knowledge that was freely accessible as part of the social commons? I mean how would people freely communicate if not using a language that was socially, not individually, created?

Oh, Christ, not this shit again.

[error]

EthanAllen certainly knows how to turn people off, I'll give him that.

[J’raxis 270145]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

As if those weren't built on past knowledge that was freely accessible as part of the social commons? I mean how would people freely communicate if not using a language that was socially, not individually, created?

How is this relevant? We're talking about who used to do the research, not whether or not the research was, afterward, publicly available or privately owned. If you're worried about private research being patented... patents are a government-created legal fiction that would go away along with the government.

[jsorens]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

All of these except Newton are examples of applied research, though. Clearly, some basic research will be done if there were no taxpayer funding. Private foundations & such would provide some funds. But without medium-term commercial applicability, some areas of research probably wouldn't see much innovation. Companies certainly won't be funding research on quasars, quarks, or ancient customs of Quechua - at least, not for the foreseeable future. Ultimately, I think that's one of the prices to be paid for a free society.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I would think that in a Free Society, sans the currant taxes, regulation, fees, etc., at some level, extra leisure time would occur and the chances of a curious individual taking an interest in some obscure Q area of research, would increase.

[error]

What's Quechua? Sounds interesting. Is there a historical society people can donate to?

[J’raxis 270145]

The private sector won't do much of it because the government is doing it for them. Who do you think did all the basic research before the government took over?

I tried to point this out to him, he countered by thinking the research just wouldn't be done.

Which bureaucracy came up with Newton's laws of thermodynamics? Or the light bulb? The cell phone? The TRANSISTOR, for Pete's sake!

All of these except Newton are examples of applied research, though. Clearly, some basic research will be done if there were no taxpayer funding. Private foundations & such would provide some funds. But without medium-term commercial applicability, some areas of research probably wouldn't see much innovation. Companies certainly won't be funding research on quasars, quarks, or ancient customs of Quechua - at least, not for the foreseeable future. Ultimately, I think that's one of the prices to be paid for a free society.

Research like this may still be done by people with enough wealth to have a lot of free time on their hands. I can easily imagine philanthropists along the lines of the founder of Wikipedia throwing their money into research that's purely for the sake of knowledge.

I would think that in a Free Society, sans the currant taxes, regulation, fees, etc., at some level, extra leisure time would occur and the chances of a curious individual taking an interest in some obscure Q area of research, would increase.

Exactly. And think of all the leisure time a lot of average people have even nowadays—imagine if people spent their time following intellectual pursuits instead of vegetating in front of American Idol and FOX News...

What's Quechua? Sounds interesting. Is there a historical society people can donate to?

The language of the Inca.

[error]

Research like this may still be done by people with enough wealth to have a lot of free time on their hands. I can easily imagine philanthropists along the lines of the founder of Wikipedia throwing their money into research that's purely for the sake of knowledge.

I like mine better.

What's Quechua? Sounds interesting. Is there a historical society people can donate to?

I know what Quechua is. Thanks.