Panera Problems

[FTL_Ian]

You could find out where he lives and park it across the street.

[Lloyd Danforth]

could be tough parking on parts of Court St.

[srqrebel]

Okay, I'm back... I work second shift, and I hastily fired off my original post just before leaving for work yesterday, so I didn't get to read the responses till this morning.

I realized afterward that I should have posted this as a new topic, instead of in Ian's thread, and I called him to see if he wanted to move it.  Thank you, Ian, for having it moved, and for contacting this person on my behalf.

He says you called and swore at him multiple times and didn't offer to fix his grass.

He never indicated to me that there had been any damage, and it did not occur to me to ask.  If he wants the grass "fixed", I would gladly work with him on that -- as long as he has the courtesy of telling me personally, instead of using it dishonestly as a smear tactic.

Seriously, you parked on the grass?  That is lame.  Or, more likely, I just don't get it and Keene is a small town and there was no where else to park.  Why not park someone else near-by and walk to it?

The area where I had been parking (for over four weeks) was an unmanicured mix of grass, weeds, and rocks.  The first day I went to Panera, I parked at the far end of the medium-sized parking lot, across four parking spaces (because of my trailer).  I didn't realize the parking lot fills up all the way during lunch, and when I left that day, there was a note on my windshield asking me to not use up precious parking spaces during lunch hours -- which was of course completely reasonable.  The next day, I parked at the spot where I parked ever since.  That day, one of the Panera managers told me that the spot where I was now parked was a "very good" spot for me to park.  He told me that he was the one who left the note, and assured me that he had no problem with me parking on the grass.  The issue of parking was never brought up to me again, until I got the recent note.

As far as parking elsewhere and walking, I would definitely have to obtain permission from a landlord for that.  If I am visiting a place of business as a customer, I don't expect to have to hunt down the landowner for permission to park.

I respect property rights as much as anybody.  In fact, property rights are the only valid rights IMO.  My money is my property, and I have the right to withhold it from anyone I wish, just as Panera's landlord has the right to withhold access to his property, even in ways that are completely unreasonable.  I would never deliberately initiate rudeness, and if someone is rude or unreasonable with me, I will engage my own property rights, no matter how trivial the impact.  Initiatory rudeness is something I cannot tolerate.

That really has nothing to do with Panera itself.

I realize that, except that I would hope Panera would care enough about their customers to at least attempt to intervene when a regular customer is being unreasonably denied parking by their landlord, especially after they gave their blessing. 

Ian graciously offered to have Julia talk to them.  I declined, as I see no need for Julia to compromise her standing with Panera -- Panera management seems to want to stay out of it.

Did you call and swear at the guy?

No.  The only time I was anything less than professional was near the end of the conversation, after it was clear to me that he had no intention whatsoever of negotiating or being reasonable.  What was said after that point I consider irrelevant; but for the sake of openness, I will relate the rest of the conversation:
After he told me that he didn't give a f___ who I was, I said, "I don't understand. It just seems very unreasonable" to which he said, "It's my property. I can do anything I want."  I then said, " You do realize you are being an a--hole?"  To which he responded, "Why don't you just stay right there, and I'll come right over and clock you?"  I said, "Okay, you just proved my point."  He said, "So what?"  When I didn't respond, he reiterated that under no circumstance am I to bring my truck onto his property again, and hung up.

I might add that his tone of voice, from the moment he answered the phone, was hostile.

I will still be going to Panera Bread.

No problem.  I am not seeking a group boycott.  I just wanted to relate my experience to anyone it may interest, and announce my personal boycott of that property owner, which unfortunately involves Panera by default.  If you wish to join me, great; if not, that's fine with me as well.

I find that I am welcome at Brewbakers on Main Street, at least for now... and their internet service is better.

The guy could have handled it better, even asking you not to park there because he doesn't want to provide a billboard for Ron Paul.

Precisely.  I would have begrudgingly left my trailer with the Ron Paul sign elsewhere, had he requested that.  It would certainly not have been an unreasonable request.

He also said you ruined it for anyone else who might want to post a Ron Paul sign on his property.

Absolute rubbish.  I am certain that I did not ruin anything for anyone.  His tone of voice, and the very first sentence out of his mouth, made it clear that he was looking for a fight from the start (which I regrettably allowed myself to be suckered into in the end).  Still, it is clear to me that he had his mind made up before he had any contact with me, and I can only interpret this claim of his as a dishonest attempt at defending himself by dividing us.

[srqrebel]

I just wanted to send out a big "thank you" to everyone who came out in support of me on here.  I hate situations where it comes down to my word against someone else's, especially when the issue is so touchy that knowing the facts is absolutely critical for outside observers to take a position safely.

[Lloyd Danforth]

He also said you ruined it for anyone else who might want to post a Ron Paul sign on his property.

I always love this line.  The implication is that they are philosophically committed to RP, by, is willing to throw him overboard because of a slight.
  A recent example was the claim that a guy with a Bazillion Dollar business liked what he saw at the FSP and was going to move his company to NH, but,................ready for this?..................changed his mind due to some 'Radical' person or event perriferally connected with the FSP

[J’raxis 270145]

Not much that the Panera Bread people can do about an irrational property owner, except perhaps to move. And if my business were on that property, that's what I would be doing tomorrow morning.

Spend a hundred thousand dollars to move your business cause the owner doesn't want people to park on the grass 

If I were the owner and/or a manager of this particular Panera, I'd be pretty damned angry that the building landlord just cost me what sounds like a regular customer. I'd consider moving the business elsewhere, and I'd certainly threaten the landlord with such a course of action next time my lease is up and he's asking me to renew.

[Soundwave]

While I don't agree with the property owner's tactics, I imagine this had little to do with the grass, and everything to do with the fact that he wasn't comfortable with the sign. It's big, and it was positioned so that when you entered the property everyone could see it. He probably felt like some people thought he was advertising the candidate, and probably would've had the same reaction to any political sign, not just RP; you know how people are regarding politics. That's exactly why I wouldn't want one of those signs on my vehicle. It's too big - pisses people off. 

Again, the guy sounds like a jerk, but Panera has no reason to move elsewhere, as that would be very expensive and the landlord scaring off customers happens too rare to have any impact on the business. Not saying you weren't a regular and valued customer Menno, just that from a business standpoint it doesn't make too much sense.

You swearing at him probably didn't help, and you are correct Menno, I wouldn't get involved in this no matter who it was. I can't be an activist without any money, and that job is going really well for me. Plus there's nothing I could do.
We do have to answer to the folks on high. There's nothing a manager at the store level could do for you. Also, there isn't really any sort of relationship between the landlord and our store. The rent gets paid over our head, and we never see him, and hardly hear from him.

[Dreepa]

He also said you ruined it for anyone else who might want to post a Ron Paul sign on his property.

I always love this line.  The implication is that they are philosophically committed to RP, by, is willing to throw him overboard because of a slight.
  A recent example was the claim that a guy with a Bazillion Dollar business liked what he saw at the FSP and was going to move his company to NH, but,................ready for this?..................changed his mind due to some 'Radical' person or event perriferally connected with the FSP

Paper tiger.

I have heard someone say something like that too... boo hoo... we don't miss them.

[Jim Johnson]

This is a classic example, in my understanding of Libertarian and Objectivist Philosophies, of the rights of a property owner.
Whether the guy is an ass or not makes no difference.  Any further discussion or interaction with the landowner should be on the level of pleasant business conversation only.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Isn't it implicit when you rent out retail property that you won't discourage customers from buying the products or services the renters provide?   This doesn't help Menno, but, if it continues to happen, Panera should get after the guy.

[Soundwave]

The problem is that it doesn't happen even remotely close to often.

[Caleb]

I don't know, rebel, it seems to me that wanting someone to supply you with a free parking space smacks of ... altruism.    (Caleb ducks and runs)

[Dreepa]

I don't know, rebel, it seems to me that wanting someone to supply you with a free parking space smacks of ... altruism.    (Caleb ducks and runs)

Wasn't he paying for it?
Paying $ to Panera... Panera pays the angry man.

[J’raxis 270145]

Isn't it implicit when you rent out retail property that you won't discourage customers from buying the products or services the renters provide?   This doesn't help Menno, but, if it continues to happen, Panera should get after the guy.

When someone rents out a piece of property, they give up a lot of rights by doing so—either through explicit terms in the lease or through various laws and common law principles. For example, my landlord can't just waltz into my apartment and start rifling through the cabinets—he owns the property, but he loses this sort of freedom by renting it out to me. And my lease explicitly lists how guests are expected to behave on the premises, and for what reasons the landlord can order them to leave: property damage, noisy or disruptive behavior, illegal activities, and so on. "I don't like your politics" isn't one of them.

So yes, Panera—if they cared—could probably do something about this. I wonder what's in their lease agreement.

[Russell Kanning]

... is willing to throw him overboard because of a slight.

so true so true