http://www.theweekextra.com/news/0907/091307arrest.html
Liberty Dollar use shows up in Walworth
---Couple charged with retail theft for making purchases
Mike Heine/The Week
(Published Sept. 13, 2007, 1:27 p.m.)
A Rockford couple was arrested this spring for using and trying to use "Liberty Dollars" at three Walworth businesses.
The suspects, Shaun A. Kranish, 22, and Svetlana V. Dudnik, 24, may be the first to try and use the "private barter currency" in Walworth County, District Attorney Phil Koss said.
The couple is also the first to post their story on a new blog site, walworthcorruption.blogspot.com, which started Sept. 7. The site is aimed at "exposing corruption in Walworth County, Wisconsin, by any and all persons holding a government job!"
It is unclear who started the site.
On it, the couple tells their story of how they were allegedly harassed by police, booked in jail and thrust into the court system for, as they say, not doing anything wrong.
On May 6, Kranish was getting something to eat at the Dari-Ripple in Walworth and attempted to pay for his meal with a $20 "fine silver Liberty Dollar." Shortly after he gave it to the clerk, a police officer arrived and started asking him questions.
"I tried to explain that it was not against the law, that I was offering silver for trade...," a writer claiming to be Shaun wrote, on the blog site. The article also appears on another blog site, www.makethestand.com.
Kranish and Dudnik, who according to the postings are now married, were arrested and taken to jail. Both are charged with four counts of misdemeanor theft.
Kranish also was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. He had a .45 caliber handgun in a CD case in his car on May 6, and he was wearing an empty holster, according to the complaint.
Walworth police were notified of Liberty Dollars being used at the Walworth Landing gas station, Daniels Sentry in Walworth and again at Dari-Ripple in late April, according to the criminal complaint. Change was given back in at least one of the instances.
Dudnik told police she was with Kranish when he used the coins at the three locations, according to the complaint.
The cases are still pending.
"I've spoken to many lawyers since this has happened, and they have all said the same thing-Walworth County, Wisconsin, is the most corrupt county in the state," Kranish wrote on his blog. "They nail people, especially people from out of town or out of state. It's a huge racket, just like everywhere else. But in Walworth, they do whatever they want with impunity."
Kranish wondered why he couldn't get the silver pieces back from the stores and give them actual currency, as he had done before in Rockford, according to the posting.
Using the Liberty Dollars as circulating currency could actually be a federal crime, according to the United States Mint.
"They are not genuine United States Mint bullion coins and are not legal tender," according to the Mint's Web site. "These medallions are privately produced products that are neither backed by, nor affiliated with, the Untied States Government."
Bernard von NotHaus, creator of the Liberty Dollar, is suing the U.S. Government for damaging his business after the U.S. Mint publicized warnings about using the coins.
"The Liberty Dollar is a 'private voluntary barter' currency which is not and has not been represented as 'legal tender,' 'coin' or 'current money' in the United States," according to the lawsuit.
The company has "encouraged persons who utilize the barter currency to offer it to merchants as barter payment for goods and services but not as 'legal tender' or 'current money.'" It is legal to use if agreed upon by the merchants, von NotHaus argues.
The company's Web site reminds users that the coins are not U.S. currency, but says to offer them "with the confidence that it will be accepted."
The U.S. Mint, the only entity allowed issue legal tender, accuses the advertisements for the company are confusing because it says the Liberty Dollars are "legal" and "constitutional."
A spokeswoman for the U.S. Mint said she could not comment on the Liberty Dollars because of the pending litigation.
Would it also be "illegal" if I used a pack of cigarettes (or whatever I chose) as barter?
Fucking thugs just killing off competition. >:(
Quote from: FTL_Ian on September 20, 2007, 02:40 PM NHFT
The U.S. Mint, the only entity allowed issue legal tender, accuses the advertisements for the company are confusing because it says the Liberty Dollars are "legal" and "constitutional."
If the U.S. Mint is the only entity allowed to issue legal tender, then what's with all these Federal Reserve Notes I keep seeing? Why aren't people getting arrested for using those?
Is this "our" SAK (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1006)??!?!
Quotethat are neither backed by, nor affiliated with, the Untied States Government.
Who cares if it is "backed" or not? 1 oz of silver remains 1 oz of silver.
Quote from: picaro on September 20, 2007, 04:52 PM NHFT
Quotethat are neither backed by, nor affiliated with, the Untied States Government.
Who cares if it is "backed" or not? 1 oz of silver remains 1 oz of silver.
On the face of the coin, it says $20, which isn't true considering that one ounce of silver is only worth $13 (the difference went to von NotHaus as profit.)
Use the coins where they're welcomed and it's no big deal. Try to pass them off on other businesses and you'll get in trouble. It isn't rocket science.
as profit is what is left after all cost are covered, he isn't getting 7 bucks profit.
Quote from: Lloyd Danforth on September 20, 2007, 06:24 PM NHFT
as profit is what is left after all cost are covered, he isn't getting 7 bucks profit.
Uhh, yeah. The coins don't grow on trees.
The US dollar also has random numbers written on it. But it's only jack-shit worth of paper.
I'll take the silver.
Quote from: d_goddard on September 20, 2007, 03:56 PM NHFT
Is this "our" SAK (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1006)??!?!
Yes.
Scumbags. That's Wisconsin cops for you. The same guys who let Jeffrey Dahmer go. Milwaukee cops are legendary for their corruption.
I do wonder if there is an issue with use of the word dollar and/or the "$" sign on the coins. I know foreign countries have currencies called dollars, but they are legal tender in their respective countries.
The points about the disparity between the posted "$20" face value and the silver content are noteworthy though. The Liberty Dollar model is a bit screwed up.
Yeah, he discussed it some here:
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=7253.0
and told us a bunch about it when we met him.
well hold on to your liberty dollars cause when the us paper money isnt worth the paper its printed on the liberty coins will still hold their value sell your dolllars invest in minerals. i say . Firecracker joe.
I figure whatever is printed on them, they're still an ounce of silver...can't go too bad with that.
QuoteI figure whatever is printed on them, they're still an ounce of silver...can't go too bad with that.
Sure you can, by paying $20 for an ounce of silver available for $13-$14 through other means. Just as FRNs claim to be worth more than their paper content, Liberty Dollars claim to be worth more than their silver content. Why not just exchange generic silver rounds?
I haven't been paying $20 for them.
While of course it's inexcusable for them to be arrested and charged with a crime, I do have a problem with people convincing waiters or cashiers to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.
Quote from: ivyleague28477 on September 23, 2007, 07:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: ThePug on September 21, 2007, 10:53 PM NHFT
... I do have a problem with people convincing waiters... to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.
I don't ;) I like that every week I get a certain someone that tips me with Liberty Dollars ;D Of course, those that do also pay the bill in US dollars, which is also appreciated!!
I bet Ivy will have the largest collection of Silver before long.
Quote from: Little Owl on September 21, 2007, 11:41 AM NHFT
QuoteI figure whatever is printed on them, they're still an ounce of silver...can't go too bad with that.
Sure you can, by paying $20 for an ounce of silver available for $13-$14 through other means. Just as FRNs claim to be worth more than their paper content, Liberty Dollars claim to be worth more than their silver content. Why not just exchange generic silver rounds?
Silver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.
First, Silver Liberties are usable in trade, unlike generic rounds. Sure, some of us hardcore libertarians recognize the value of silver, but the vast majority of people do not, and would not have any idea of the value of a silver round. Having a "suggested retail value" on the Silver Liberties makes them usable as a currency with people who don't have a web browser continually reloading the Kitco silver spot price page.
Second, Silver Liberties are a currency, generic rounds are an investment. When you trade FRNs for Liberties, you don't have to keep track of the purchase price; unlike generic rounds. When you buy generic rounds, you need to remember what you bought them for so that when you sell them you can correctly determine your profit and thus your tax burden. If you don't keep a receipt of the purchase price, then the tax collector can assess your taxes based on the full value of the silver rounds. Don't forget that NH has an investment tax. With Liberties, you don't have that issue since a currency swap is not an investment tax event.
Third, the Liberty Dollar has a movement behind it and is organized. We are signing up merchants and listing them, so you can know which businesses will accept them. You can actively use the Liberty Dollar, knowing that they will be accepted in some stores. That isn't true of generic rounds. Where is the NHGenericSilverRounds.com website? :P
QuoteSilver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.<snip></snip>
Thats a nice ad, but largely untrue. Generic rounds are usable in trade, why wouldn't they be? Anybody considering accepting a Liberty Dollar would likely consider accepting a silver round as well.
Silver Liberties are NOT currency. And most private mints DO have websites.
Quote from: Little Owl on September 24, 2007, 11:22 AM NHFT
QuoteSilver Liberties are worth more than generic rounds, for some good reasons.<snip></snip>
Thats a nice ad, but largely untrue. Generic rounds are usable in trade, why wouldn't they be? Anybody considering accepting a Liberty Dollar would likely consider accepting a silver round as well.
Silver Liberties are NOT currency. And most private mints DO have websites.
Of course its true that Liberty Dollars are more usable in trade than generic rounds. Have you even tried using them or are you just trying to stop people from working to free themselves from tyranny? People do NOT accept generic rounds as currency because they don't view it as currency. It is simply a fact that the majority of people don't know the value of silver and they view dollars as "money". You can theoretically try to use chickens or bags of sand or wampum as currency, but that doesn't mean that people will accept them.
People DO accept the Liberty Dollar
because it has a dollar value on it. That one thing by itself makes it usable in trade.
Silver Liberties ARE currency, that is an indisputable fact. They were created specifically to BE currency, and your saying they aren't doesn't make it so. It only pisses off those of us who are actually doing something to move us towards freedom.
Quote from: Little Owl on September 21, 2007, 11:41 AM NHFTSure you can, by paying $20 for an ounce of silver available for $13-$14 through other means. Just as FRNs claim to be worth more than their paper content, Liberty Dollars claim to be worth more than their silver content. Why not just exchange generic silver rounds?
The "spot price" is the price of a 1,000 ounce ingot of silver located in New York for immediate delivery with payment in cash.
So saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price" means that you want to leech off of the people who pony up the cash, fuel, and labor to take that 1,000 ounce bar of silver to a mint, roll it out, punch out the blanks, mint the rounds, and deliver the finished product.
As for a fixed face value - would you rather have $0 of tangible value backing your medium of exchange, or >$0?
I do not believe that generic silver is usable as currency. This thread inspired me to write the following post on NH Liberty Dollar:
http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/sep/silver_money_why_bother_liberty_dollar
Quote from: ivyleague28477 on September 23, 2007, 07:25 AM NHFT
Quote from: ThePug on September 21, 2007, 10:53 PM NHFT
... I do have a problem with people convincing waiters... to accept LDs when the owner of the store hasn't agreed to accept them.
I don't ;) I like that every week I get a certain someone that tips me with Liberty Dollars ;D Of course, those that do also pay the bill in US dollars, which is also appreciated!!
Leaving them as a tip is fine, since a tip isn't an actual debt to pay. I'm talking about paying a bill in them. For example, someone using LDs to pay their check at a restaurant if they haven't confirmed that LDs are accepted there. Even worse is if they convince some poor gullible cashier to accept them, because the amount could end up getting taken out of their paycheck.
You seriously get LD tips, though? Where do you work? I had no idea they were that widespread anywhere. I understand the objections people have to the LD, but they're still better than than Federal Reserve scrip, and that's good enough for me.
QuoteSo saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price"...blah blah blah
Are you the same person who falsely claimed I said this in another forum, or are there actually two of you who keep hearing "spot price" when I don't say it?
QuoteHave you even tried using them or are you just trying to stop people from working to free themselves from tyranny?
Before you go on about "tyranny" consider the tyranny of good old-fashioned marketing. Liberty Dollars are a convenient way to sell bullion coins at inflated prices. They are not Sam Adams pressed into a round. Cut the "He must be Darth Vader" crap just because I think Liberty Dollars are a poor choice for barter. Its doubly depressing because I think it *could* have been done right.
QuoteI do not believe that generic silver is usable as currency.
Why not? I've paid people in silver and they're more than happy to accept it. Instead of being stamped with a questionable "$20", they're stamped with their weight. (Actually, I've done most silver transactions using 10oz bars, not 1oz because the premium over content is too high.)
QuoteI haven't been paying $20 for them.
How much do you pay for them, Kat?
Quote from: Little Owl on September 24, 2007, 08:03 PM NHFT
QuoteSo saying that a one-ounce round of silver is "worth" the "spot price"...blah blah blah
Are you the same person who falsely claimed I said this in another forum, or are there actually two of you who keep hearing "spot price" when I don't say it?
You said "$13-$14" and the current New York spot price bid as of right now, Tuesday September 25, 12:05pm, is $13.39, and it closed at $13.48 yesterday. What else am I supposed to assume but that you're talking about the spot price?
QuoteWhat else am I supposed to assume but that you're talking about the spot price?
Don't assume anything. You know what they say about people who assume....
Still haven't heard a good explanation about why this "Inflation Proof" currency went from 10 per oz. Ag to 20 per oz.
If it wasn't "inflation proof" it would have gone from 20 to 10. Inflation is the erosion of value in the unit of currency. The Liberty Dollar is pegged to the value of the dollar, and as the value of the dollar falls, the number of dollars needed to maintain the peg increases.
As for its link to the dollar, this simplifies things for a nation which is widely unaccustomed to dealing in multiple currencies. It's one thing for a Canadian McDonald's or the Schipol airport to post a daily or weekly US dollar/Euro/whatever conversion rate and have their cash registers programmed to accept multiple currencies, but it's quite another for 99.999% of US retail businesses.
Also the multi-currency-accepting Canadian businesses that I've ever seen don't give change in anything other than Canadian dollars, which applied to silver would defeat the purpose of having the metal or certificates actually circulating in the economy.
Pegging the ounce of silver to a specific number of dollars avoids this complexity, but still allows businesses to negotiate acceptance with the customer - for example, acceptance of payment offered in LD could be at a $17 per ounce ratio, instead of the full $20. Just as they don't have to accept silver as payment, they don't have to accept von Nothaus' idea of the exchange rate.
The Liberty Dollar did erode in value. It was once worth 0.10 tr oz of silver. Today its worth 0.05 tr oz. Likewise in gold.
Maintaining its peg to the U.S. Dollar, in my opinion, defeats its purpose. They should have estimated what they wanted a "Liberty" to be worth (in today's dollars) and set it equal to that amount of precious metal.
And before you incorrectly read (yet a third time) a claim that this occur at spot price, I will point out that it is routine for currency exchange services to charge both a surcharge and point-spread for converting currency. The cost of minting liberties and/or printing paper and warehousing silver could be recouped as the fee associated with converting USD to Liberties. Once converted, Liberties could be exchanged for goods at or near spot.
Some variant of this approach beats the "We'll devalue it with the Dollar" nonsense in place today.
Quote from: Little Owl on September 25, 2007, 06:37 PM NHFT
The Liberty Dollar did erode in value. It was once worth 0.10 tr oz of silver. Today its worth 0.05 tr oz. Likewise in gold.
No it didn't. The amount of silver did not change, only the "suggested FRN value" changed, due to the FRN's value being eroded. In fact, this is one of the big advantages of the Liberty Dollar: it shows how badly the FRN is devaluing. You clearly get to see "this ounce used to be worth about $10 FRNs, but due to the FRN inflating it is now worth about $20 FRNs" or "this ounce used to buy $10 worth of stuff, but due to the FRN being inflated it can now buy $20 worth of stuff".
Quote from: Little Owl on September 25, 2007, 06:37 PM NHFT
Maintaining its peg to the U.S. Dollar, in my opinion, defeats its purpose. They should have estimated what they wanted a "Liberty" to be worth (in today's dollars) and set it equal to that amount of precious metal.
An ounce IS an ounce. Marking it with a suggested FRN value is the whole point of the Liberty Dollar, making it acceptable in trade where people are used to ONLY accepting FRNs. If you take away the suggested FRN value denomination, you essentially give up on the idea of transitioning away from a fiat currency.
Quote from: Little Owl on September 25, 2007, 06:37 PM NHFT
And before you incorrectly read (yet a third time) a claim that this occur at spot price, I will point out that it is routine for currency exchange services to charge both a surcharge and point-spread for converting currency. The cost of minting liberties and/or printing paper and warehousing silver could be recouped as the fee associated with converting USD to Liberties. Once converted, Liberties could be exchanged for goods at or near spot.
Then why would people use it? If a silver round is priced like you suggest, you would be insane to use it as a currency. Gresham's law and all that.
I would prefer to just use "ounces of silver" rather than $ or L$ in commerce. I have used a 1/2 oz silver Liberty dollar to pay for a bowl of chili and a latte. Before I ordered, I asked the owner of the restaurant if he would accept 1/2 oz. of silver for a bowl of chili and a latte. He agreed, so I gave him the silver and he gave me my food. I didn't suggest that it was a $10 silver coin or that it was currency, only that it was 1/2 oz. pure silver.
Quote from: ThePug on September 24, 2007, 04:29 PM NHFT
You seriously get LD tips, though? Where do you work? I had no idea they were that widespread anywhere.
Have you been in New Hampshire much, to places frequented by Free-Staters? :)
I was at the Barley House in Concord a few months ago and one of the owners (apparently there are to co-owners?) asked about them and agreed to accept them at face value. It helped a lot that a bunch of the NHLA were there and pointing out that we like to come to the Barley House after recon missions at the House, and we prefer doing business at places that accept LD's.
I've heard (but was not there myself) that City Deli in Concord also accepts LD's, on the same basis -- so many FSPers (and friendly natives) were talking to the owner about them, he decided it would be silly to turn away the business.
Quote from: d_goddard on September 26, 2007, 01:55 PM NHFT
Quote from: ThePug on September 24, 2007, 04:29 PM NHFT
You seriously get LD tips, though? Where do you work? I had no idea they were that widespread anywhere.
Have you been in New Hampshire much, to places frequented by Free-Staters? :)
Sadly, no. I'm going to try and come with KBCraig next time he goes to NH.
Quote from: Defender of Liberty on September 26, 2007, 10:39 AM NHFTI have used a 1/2 oz silver Liberty dollar to pay for a bowl of chili and a latte.
Chili
and a latte? Now that's just crazy talk. I could see getting some chili. Or some latte. But both at once? <shakes head>
;)
The most recent post (http://libertydollararrest.blogspot.com/2007/10/liberty-dollar-arrest-fund-raising.html) asks for financial help with their legal costs.
ok
I've known about the liberty dollar for a while, but other than bartering for products and services, giving them oput as tips, etc, is there actually any type of creditor or bank that will accept them? Unless I could pay my light bill or mortgage with them, then what good are they?
Anthony
Quote from: OnGard4Liberty on October 21, 2007, 05:55 PM NHFT
The most recent post (http://libertydollararrest.blogspot.com/2007/10/liberty-dollar-arrest-fund-raising.html) asks for financial help with their legal costs.
Maybe "Dutch" will help them out.
Quote from: miamiballoonguy on October 25, 2007, 08:54 AM NHFTI've known about the liberty dollar for a while, but other than bartering for products and services, giving them oput as tips, etc, is there actually any type of creditor or bank that will accept them? Unless I could pay my light bill or mortgage with them, then what good are they?
The banks are the principal opponents to alternative currencies, because they are the ones making enormous profits by creating money out of thin air, a process which the use of value-backed currency sharply limits. So no, there's no bank that will accept them as a deposit or give them out as an alternative to a $10 or $20 Federal Reserve Note.
What good they serve is illustrated by a number of alternative currencies that have arisen over the years - wooden nickels, Nashua's "Downtown Dollars," "Ithaca Hours," etc. By accepting as payment, and giving them out as change to willing customers, the value that the currency represents stays within the business community that accepts it, instead of being siphoned off to Toronto-Dominion BankNorth, or Citizens Royal Bank of Scotland, etc.
Quote from: mvpel on October 25, 2007, 09:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: miamiballoonguy on October 25, 2007, 08:54 AM NHFTI've known about the liberty dollar for a while, but other than bartering for products and services, giving them oput as tips, etc, is there actually any type of creditor or bank that will accept them? Unless I could pay my light bill or mortgage with them, then what good are they?
The banks are the principal opponents to alternative currencies, because they are the ones making enormous profits by creating money out of thin air, a process which the use of value-backed currency sharply limits. So no, there's no bank that will accept them as a deposit or give them out as an alternative to a $10 or $20 Federal Reserve Note.
What good they serve is illustrated by a number of alternative currencies that have arisen over the years - wooden nickels, Nashua's "Downtown Dollars," "Ithaca Hours," etc. By accepting as payment, and giving them out as change to willing customers, the value that the currency represents stays within the business community that accepts it, instead of being siphoned off to Toronto-Dominion BankNorth, or Citizens Royal Bank of Scotland, etc.
Fair Enough... Any chance of there being an alternative bank that deals only with alternative currencies? I doubt it, but we can all dream, can't we?
Federal banking regulations would probably put a very quick kibosh on that idea.
Quote from: mvpel on October 25, 2007, 10:35 AM NHFT
Federal banking regulations would probably put a very quick kibosh on that idea.
<sigh>
I wonder how that would change if Ron Paul were to win. With the notion of competing currencies, some of these banking regulations would have to be lifted, don't you think? I could see it now... something like a credit union but backed by gold and silver or something else...
Another question, assuming that a competing currency is allowed... how would the liberty dollar fit into this sort of scenario?
Quote from: miamiballoonguy on October 25, 2007, 09:57 AM NHFT
Quote from: mvpel on October 25, 2007, 09:52 AM NHFT
Quote from: miamiballoonguy on October 25, 2007, 08:54 AM NHFTI've known about the liberty dollar for a while, but other than bartering for products and services, giving them oput as tips, etc, is there actually any type of creditor or bank that will accept them? Unless I could pay my light bill or mortgage with them, then what good are they?
The banks are the principal opponents to alternative currencies, because they are the ones making enormous profits by creating money out of thin air, a process which the use of value-backed currency sharply limits. So no, there's no bank that will accept them as a deposit or give them out as an alternative to a $10 or $20 Federal Reserve Note.
What good they serve is illustrated by a number of alternative currencies that have arisen over the years - wooden nickels, Nashua's "Downtown Dollars," "Ithaca Hours," etc. By accepting as payment, and giving them out as change to willing customers, the value that the currency represents stays within the business community that accepts it, instead of being siphoned off to Toronto-Dominion BankNorth, or Citizens Royal Bank of Scotland, etc.
Fair Enough... Any chance of there being an alternative bank that deals only with alternative currencies? I doubt it, but we can all dream, can't we?
Whatever finally comes of this might:—
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=9684.0
Quote from: mvpel on October 25, 2007, 10:35 AM NHFT
Federal banking regulations would probably put a very quick kibosh on that idea.
Technically doesn't the Liberty Warehouse (Idaho?) count as a bank? It is a repository. So it's not a walk-in, FDIC or state licensed.
GOOD!!!!
I feel more confident I can get more value out of NORFED than I can from the FDIC banks.
As follows when (not if) the defecation does hit the rotary oscillator I'm going to be glad to be holding silver notes. ;)