Brian Travis invaded by bureaucrats

[Russell Kanning]

Deer licenses are sold by the state every year to cull the dear, which are arguably the cutest creature in the woods. So the exact opposite of an obligation to support deer exists in current society. So why is there a positive obligation to feed any other animal on your land?

maybe they should have let the horses free and sold "licenses to kidnap" to the richer horse community .... but they wouldn't because heidi must be one of those people that can't have enough horses around.

[Russell Kanning]

Can we just merge all the 9/11, Browns, NAP/ZAP, and Ivy threads with this one? 

I was asking someone yesterday ... if they keep the horses long enough, will this thread pass ed and elaine's one?
I guess the horses will come back to castlerock farm and then guys can just go over and observe, build shelters for, call in weekly spca inspections on, and/or pet the horses.

I also don't see how this issue defines or ruins the reputation of the fsp or its members .... we seem to have about 17 different opinions or actions people have taken in this case.

[shyfrog]

Can we just merge all the 9/11, Browns, NAP/ZAP, and Ivy threads with this one? 

I was asking someone yesterday ... if they keep the horses long enough, will this thread pass ed and elaine's one?
I guess the horses will come back to castlerock farm and then guys can just go over and observe, build shelters for, call in weekly spca inspections on, and/or pet the horses.

I also don't see how this issue defines or ruins the reputation of the fsp or its members .... we seem to have about 17 different opinions or actions people have taken in this case.

Is it being discussed on the FSP boards? I thought this was the underground?

BTW...do you guys ban IP blocks for any particular reason?

[MistyBlue]

NJLiberty...since i do wildlife rehab I do indeed rehab abd care for some pretty fugly critters. Also many pretty nasty temperred ones. A lot of smelly ones. And many considered pests or varmints. Ever try to give an oral medication to a pissed off badger? Or try to rewrap the leg of a really pissed of fisher? hell, ever try just getting near either of those when it's in a good mood?  Evil freaking little buggers.

Earthworms don't have pain receptors. So no, I wouldn't have a fit if you dehydrated some. I would probanly give you a wide berth in society if you thought that was entertaining though. Not due to causing suffering since they can't feel it, but because it's a damned odd thing to enjoy, LOL!

So no, for me it isn't the cuteness factor at all. I'd be just as concerned if they were starving one of these:

naked mole rat, nasty critter. Breeds incestually, mother to sons. Blech. Wouldn't even use it as bait.  But it can feel pain and suffering and if a human has any redeeming qualities then they don't do that for shits and giggles. Just my humble opinion...and I will admit to being opinionated.   

Shyfrog...nice stable photo! Although I'd hate to have to decobweb that! Although I would assume the owner of that barn has staff. Lucky bastard...I'd love to have "staff"...it's gotta be better than getting up at 5:30 am every...single...day...of the year.
The horse pictured first is ready for shipping. Horse owners with expensive horses tend to protect them during shipping because the act of standing in a moving vehicle isn't one many horses are set up to deal with. The things on the legs are called shipping boots, this keeps them from knocking themselves in their own legs when they move around to maintain balance. In a horse trailer, horse van, stock trailer or float.

In  a school bus I would assume they'd need backpacks and lunch bags? And insurance....since it's a damned stupid way to ship horses even if they were cheap and you hated them. Top heavy tall vehicle with top heavy tall moving live weight...dumb as a sack of hammers. But I digress....

Nobody has said at all that the horses need to be pampered. Or cartoons characters on a book cover. (I think I read that book once...remedial read with a thin plot. Wouldn't recommend it) I'm pretty sure if you've read my posts that all my comments were that the horses are only required to have the bare minimum basics that ensure life, not that they needed their arses wiped and sung to sleep. I will admit to pointing and laughing at people who coddle all their animals or anthropomorphize their animals. I do like mine an awful lot, but they're not humans and they're not really into being coddled. Nor am I the coddling type.

I'm also not the stupid type either...I keep mine alive and healthy. Go figure. What a concept! Feed it, give it ample room to move around in, provide it enough shelter to keep itself alive and keep it from being stuffed full of parasites with a 5 minute cheap-ass treatment that only needs to happen once every other month. I don't consider that coddling. I consider it my responsibility when I bought them. If I were too cheap or too lazy to care for animals I wouldn't have them. It's called being a mature responsible adult.

I do love the pirate "yarrr" though. 

[MaineShark]

What I see is *some* people claiming abuse yet they never spoke of it here.  I would have expected if this issue was so important to someone who supposedly loves freedom (enough to grant others the freedom to treat their PROPERTY as they wish) they would have posted here a thread about how a certain FSP member was, in their opinion, abusing an animal.

Not to argue...especially since you crack me up...but those two statements are oxymorons. How can someone claim someone is treating their property badly to a BB of people who grant others to treat their own property as they see fit?

Um, no, they're not.

You have a right to treat your property as you see fit.  I have a right to ostracize you or use any other non-violent means to address behavior I disapprove of.

When it's affecting a living thing...even though I do consider it property...I can not personally condone the continuation of it's suffering whilst hoping my ignoring the folks purposely causing the suffering is hurting their feelings. That's my opinion.

"One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats its animals." - Mahatma Gandhi"

Someone who argues for murdering people who abuse animals doesn't get to quote Gandhi without proving herself to be a complete hypocrite.

You think Gandhi would call the cops on someone?  He wouldn't even call the cops on you if you were going to kill him, let alone because you abused an animal.

My opinion is that by blindly supporting the animal abusers..the community as a whole will seem seriously flawed to everyone outside of it. And while many claim they don't care what others may think...they're also never going to grow or progress or ever hit that 20,000 mark without new members. And the members they have now may be perceived differently after the publlicity of this case.

No one is blindly supporting Brian and Heidi, even assuming that the allegations of abuse are ever proven objectively (eg, not by biased witnesses who have an axe to grind).  We're arguing that murdering people if they abuse animals is wrong.  Or using any other level of violence in response to such behavior, for that matter.

Anyone who we actually want to be associated with will grasp that concept easily, so no, our response here will not drive away anyone worth having.  We'll do without thugs and those who work for and with them, thanks...

Joe

[littlehawk]

I have followed this thread with interest. I do not know who to believe. I would like to believe the freestaters (Travis etc) but that would make me biased, as I am staying open to the comments from both parties.

I must say that there is a very simple solution to this:
A few pictures would speak a thousand words.
Have any pictures been taken or posted?

Littlehawk

[shyfrog]

A few pictures (aka strange things afoot)

[KBCraig]

Shyfrog...nice stable photo! Although I'd hate to have to decobweb that!

Cobwebs are one sign of a healthy barn. A barn without spiders either overly relies on chemical pest control, or is overrun with flies and other nasties.

[MistyBlue]

Actually cobwebs are the number one cause of barn fires.  They catch fire easily from hot lightbulbs or sparks and they spread fire faster than most chemical accelerants. One of the very first things people learn in a barn fire safety course is to decobweb the barn.

MaineShark...we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. I seriously don't do drama. I don't equate fining someone for starving animals equals murder.  I don't think all levels of violence are equal and I don't think every violation of rights equals violence. It might not be right...but it doesn't mean it's violent to me. Or murderous.  They had their horses removed for causing them suffering and for not providing them the shelter they knew they were supposed to provide. (and even if there wasn't a law for shelter...a person should stikll have the two cells to rub together to realize that they still need adequate shelter in -30 weather) They're getting or already have those horses back. Nobody shot them. Nobody slapped them. Nobody pulled a gun. The only "weapon" pointed was a video camera and the only violence it caught was REALLY bad acting by a seeming drama queen.

Nope...I'm "old school" I guess. Cowboy or cowgirl up, put on your big boy/girl pants and act like a grown up. If you take it in and it's alive, treat it somewhat decent. if you don't like the laws, work on changing them. Arguing endlessly on a BB about how tough everyone would be if it ever happened to them and how unfair everything is is whining...kids do that. Fix it, change it, work on it. Do it in ways that actually get results. JMHO.

Shyfrog...the bloated giraffe is fecking hilarious! 

[Lloyd Danforth]

A few pictures (aka strange things afoot)

I had the same thing happen when I tried to assemble an Ikea kit!

[AntonLee]

you can change the laws if you want, frankly I never agreed to follow anyone's rules.  I just make sure I don't hurt people or steal from them.  It has worked out so far, but how long can that last? 

[MaineShark]

MaineShark...we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.

Folks can only "agree to disagree" when one isn't waving guns in the faces of the others.

I seriously don't do drama.

Could have fooled me.  Have you done anything but drama, here?

I don't equate fining someone for starving animals equals murder.  I don't think all levels of violence are equal and I don't think every violation of rights equals violence. It might not be right...but it doesn't mean it's violent to me. Or murderous. 

Whether or not something was violent is not a matter of opinion.  That, as with the case of whether or not the horses were healthy (as you were quick to point out) is a matter for fact.

If the Brian, Heidi, et al had not just gone along with the cops, the guns would have come out.  If they had responded in self-defense to that attack, they would have been murdered.  Every law is backed by the threat of deadly force.  The State just gives you the chance to pay up (with money or time) to avoid that.  But if you don't do what they say, they will kill you.  There is no room for opinion there.  That's the fact.

They had their horses removed for causing them suffering and for not providing them the shelter they knew they were supposed to provide. (and even if there wasn't a law for shelter...a person should stikll have the two cells to rub together to realize that they still need adequate shelter in -30 weather)

For someone who doesn't "do drama," you sure exaggerate a lot.  Thirty degrees below zero?  In Candia?

They're getting or already have those horses back. Nobody shot them. Nobody slapped them. Nobody pulled a gun. The only "weapon" pointed was a video camera and the only violence it caught was REALLY bad acting by a seeming drama queen.

I don't have to pull a gun, if I tell you that I will, if you don't do what I say.  The gun is still being used.

Nope...I'm "old school" I guess. Cowboy or cowgirl up, put on your big boy/girl pants and act like a grown up. If you take it in and it's alive, treat it somewhat decent. if you don't like the laws, work on changing them. Arguing endlessly on a BB about how tough everyone would be if it ever happened to them and how unfair everything is is whining...kids do that. Fix it, change it, work on it. Do it in ways that actually get results. JMHO.

No, calling some punks with guns because you are too childish to deal with problems directly, is whining.  Didn't we hear talk of folks supposedly making drive-by complaints?  Folks who claim they knew there was a problem, but did nothing about it?  That's childish nonsense.  You talk tough, when you are having some other legally-untouchable thug do your dirty work for you.  I doubt you would have the guts to approach an abuser, personally, and try to do what you are perfectly willing to pay your thugs to do.

Joe

[AntonLee]

if the link I'm reading is correct, it shows that Candia hasn't dropped below 0 degrees for an average temperature.
http://www.city-data.com/city/Candia-New-Hampshire.html

[shyfrog]

This isn't just for you Misty, but for anyone else reading that is still tangled in the myth of society and the state.

The unfortunate truth is that the threat of violence is perpetually there. If a cop shows up, he is a weapon of the state and will murder you if you try to defend yourself or your property against that that weapon. There is no argument there.

Don't like it? Change it? What happens when the system for affecting change is corrupt and protected by the weapons of the state? What happens when the state has effectively shut down all but "feel good" measures to appease the general public? What happens when the majority think all of this is status quo and perfectly normal? What will happen when that apparatus decides to take away ANY effective way of defending yourself against it? So many questions...am I off topic yet? 

I know. Just cowboy up and pull on my shit-kickers and labor like there's nothing wrong. Someone else will take care of it because they know what's better for the whole of the community. Volunteer for one of those feel-good, community-building events that gets posted in the local paper and makes everyone go "awww...how nice". Everything else is just fine. Ignore the gun in the room. Smile. Wave at your neighbors, unless they're doing something with their property you don't like. If that is the case, frown and disapprove, and then call Zoning or one of the other countless departments available on them. It's a free country Damn I'm proud to be an American. Ahhh...freedom. Makes me want to spread it to other countries (by force if necessary). I don't think I can be more sarcastic...

Honestly, the LEAST of your worries in this day and age is horse abuse.

Home school your kids. The public school system is a complete and utter disaster and not worth saving. Turn off your TV. American Idol (or Lost or any other tripe) doesn't matter. At all. Tell your "representatives" they don't represent you. Because they really don't. Stop empowering them. Power corrupts.

I will admit. We've got it really good here in NH compared to other states. Gee... how long till we're like the other states? Not long if we ignore the real issues.

[littlehawk]

I am not (yet) taking sides but there appears to be numerous occasions where Misty has exaggerated the truth. This I dislike (very muchso) because it becomes misleading to the average Joe-Reader trying to make sense of this incident. Its no different that the corporate media putting their patented "spin" on stuff.

If Mr. Spowl (DVM?) and his troops want to reveal the truth, why don't they post pictures of the alleged abused animals? Travis and Heidi could do the same (if they have photos). That would put this issue to rest, or at least we could have a more focused discussion instead of running off on assumptions, speculations, exaggerations and lies. Why is revealing the TRUTH such a rarity these days?

Littlehawk