Gun Ranges?

[Dreepa]

Pat do you shoot there?

[Pat McCotter]

No. I don't currently shoot anywhere. I am trying to hook up with Tony Lekas at Wilson Hill but he seems to be out.

I just knew that this place was close to Concord and that Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute holds courses there.

[MaineShark]

By the way, if anyone wants to learn how to build AK47s, I have the tools and instructions to build them from kits with homemade recievers.

I don't think I'm ever going to build a gun but I would love to buy one from one once I move to NH.  M16s suck.  I'd love to fire a weapon that works.

M16's do not suck. That statement is completely inaccurate, they are a fantastic weapon. The U.S. military doesn't seem to have a problem with them. I've never had my M16 not "work". AK's have terrible range and accuracy when compared to the M16.

M16's don't suck...

If you're hunting raccoons...

And have an unlimited supply of new magazines...

And do all your shooting from a nice, clean bench...

And have plenty of time to clean the rifle between sessions...

In the real world, I'd take a dozen other rifles before an M16/AR15.

At the range that the majority of the practical use of M16's takes place, a semi-auto shotgun would probably be a better choice.

At the range where the accuracy of the M16/AR15 platform becomes a determining factor, a battle rifle is far superior to an assault rifle.  FAL, G3, M14...

Heck, buy a Bushmaster M15S if you really like 5.56mm.  Much better rifle than an AR15.  Actually, if anyone wants one, let me know; mine's up for sale, along with an assortment of mags and ammunition... I'm just not interested in 5.56mm anymore...

Joe

[MobileDigit]

Anybody else seen the "BoxOTruth" website?  www.boxotruth.com
...
A very cool website.

The url is http://theboxotruth.com/, and I agree, it is very cool.

[president]

I ran across a few extra phonebooks, so I did some testing...
phone boo means phone books








000 Buck from about 8 feet
cover of first book


back of first and cover of second





000 Buck from about 7 meters







Birdshot from about 8 feet


back of first and cover of second

[president]

12 G shotgun...slug on top, 000 buck on bottom


.308 FMJ


5.56mm from an AR-15. Glasser saftey slug, and 2 x FMJ


Here is the 7.62mm stuff from the AK-47 clone. The frangible round broke into three parts, and I lost one. The AP ammo didn't lose it's shape.


9mm from the glock. from left to right 4 x FMJ, 2 x HP, 2 x +P+, 2 x +P


9mm +P, this is what I have in my pistols most of the time


9mm, .308, and .5.56

[president]

FMJ 9mm from 7 meters
fireline:


B29 target:


I didn't think they would make it thru the tree, but they did.
back of target:

[Recumbent ReCycler]

I once cut a tree down with an AR15, and some of my friends cut down some trees with M249 SAWs.    My brothers and I tested one of their cars for bullet stopping capability.  A .22lr will go more than halfway through a car, as will a .50 cal muzzleloader ball.  Unfortunately my younger brother didn't tell me that we were going to be doing any shooting, so I left my guns at home.   

[MaineShark]

I have heard the rumor that the M-16 round tumbles upon impact and then every currently enlisted military man I hear says that that is B.S.

The round does not "tumble."  In flesh, the bullet yaws, so that it is travelling sideways.  The cannelure (where the case crimps to the bullet - a slight groove around the midsection of the 5.56 round) cannot take the stress, and the bullet disintegrates into multiple pieces.

But no, it does not "tumble" like a sawblade as it travels.

The older M193 actually performs better at typical combat ranges.  The longer, heavier M855 (current use) bullet, with its steel core, actually performs worse at typical combat ranges.  But it can penetrate a helmet at 800 yards.  Which was an arbitrary demand that the gov't folks invented (during the SAW program, if I'm not mistaken), resulting in the adoption of a new, less effective round.

Joe

[president]

The round does not "tumble."  In flesh, the bullet yaws, so that it is travelling sideways.  The cannelure (where the case crimps to the bullet - a slight groove around the midsection of the 5.56 round) cannot take the stress, and the bullet disintegrates into multiple pieces.

When I talk about missle tumble, I just mean the bullet does not punch straight though. I would consider the bullet yawing as missle tumble.


http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/How_a_high-speed.html

"In the concept of a gunshot wound held by most individuals, the bullet goes through the person like a drill bit through wood, 'drilling' a neat hole through structures it passes through. However, this concept is erroneous. As a bullet moves through the body, it imparts kinetic energy to the surrounding tissue, flinging it away form the bullet?s path in a radial manner (direction) and producing a temporary cavity considerably larger than the diameter of the bullet. This temporary cavity, which has a lifetime of 5 to 10 msec from initial rapid growth until collapse, undergoes a series of gradually smaller pulsations and contractions before it finally disappears, leaving the permanent wound track [Figures 3-1 and 3-2].
    "The size and the shape of the temporary cavity depend on the amount of kinetic energy lost by the bullet in its path through the tissue, how rapidly the energy is lost, and the elasticity and cohesiveness of the tissue. The maximum volume and diameter of this cavity are many times the volume and diameter of the bullet. Maximum expansion of the cavity does not occur until some time after the bullet has passed through the target. [Emphasis added.] The temporary cavity phenomenon is significant because it has been found to be the most important factor in determining the extent of the wounding in an individual in regard to the interaction of a bullet with the body. In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in the tissue by a pistol bullet is insignificant to cause the remote injuries produced by a high-velocity rifle bullet.

    "The picture is radically different in the case of a high-velocity missile. As the bullet enters the body, there is a "tail splash," or the backward hurling of injured tissue. The bullet passes through the target, creating a large temporary cavity whose maximum diameter may be up to 30 times the diameter of the original bullet. The maximum diameter of the cavity occurs at the point at which the maximum rate of loss of kinetic energy occurs. This cavity will undulate for 5 to 10 msec before coming to rest as a permanent track. In high-velocity centerfire rifles, the expanding walls of the temporary cavity are capable of doing severe damage. Local pressures on the order of 100 to 200 atm may develop. This pressure may produce injuries to blood vessels, nerves, or organs that are a considerable distance from the path of the bullet. Fractures can occur even without direct contact between the bone and a rifle bullet. Positive and negative pressures alternate in the wound, with resultant sucking of foreign material and bacteria into the wound from both entrance and exit.
    "? Energy loss along a wound track is not uniform. Variations may be due either to behavior of the bullet or changes in the density of the tissue as the bullet goes from one organ to another. An increase in kinetic energy loss is reflected in an increase in the diameter of the temporary cavity. A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble. At this time, the bullet?s cross-sectional area will become larger, and the drag force will be increased. The result is an increase in kinetic energy loss and thus an increase in the diameter of the temporary cavity. With hunting ammunition, the picture is radically different. The bullet will begin to expand shortly after entering the body, with a resultant rapid loss of kinetic energy. A large temporary cavity is formed immediately as the bullet enters the body.
    "? It has been found that above a certain critical velocity (800 to 900 m/sec or 2625 to 2953 ft/sec), the character of a wound changes radically with tissue destruction becoming much more severe. Trans- or super-sonic flow within the tissue causing strong shockwaves has been assumed to be responsible for this effect. In experiments by Rybeck and Janzon, 6-mm steel balls weighing 0.86 gm were fired at the hind legs of dogs. They found that at a velocity of 510 m/sec, the volume of macroscopically injured muscle was only slightly larger than the diameter of the bullet. At 978 and 1313 m/sec, the volume of devitalized muscle was seen to be 20 to 30 times the volume of the permanent cavity.
    "? It is the author?s belief that rather than there being a critical velocity above which the severity of wounds increases dramatically, there is instead a critical level of kinetic energy loss. This level is different for each organ or tissue. When a bullet exceeds this kinetic energy threshold, it produces a temporary cavity that the organ or tissue can no longer contain, i.e., one that exceeds the elastic limit of the organ. When the elastic limit is exceeded, the organ "bursts." For full metal-jacketed bullets or steel balls to reach that level of kinetic energy and thus a particular size of temporary cavity, these missiles must be traveling at very high velocities (greater than 800 to 900 m/sec). For soft-point or hollow-point rifle bullets, however, the same loss of kinetic energy will occur at lower velocity as a result of the deformation of the bullets. Thus for hunting ammunition, the critical velocity, in the author?s experience, appears to be between 1500 and 2000 ft/sec (457.2 to 609.6 m/sec).
    "High-velocity missile wounds of the head are especially destructive because of formation of a temporary cavity within the cranial cavity. the brain is enclosed by the skull, a closed rigid structure that can relieve pressure only by "bursting." Thus, high-velocity missile wounds of the head tend to produce bursting injuries. That these bursting injuries are the result of temporary cavity formation can be demonstrated by shooting through empty skulls. A high-velocity bullet fired through an empty skull produces small entrance and exit holes with no fractures. The same missile fired through a skull containing brain causes extensive fracturing and bursting injuries.
    "? Although the gyroscopic spin of the bullet along its axis is sufficient to stabilize the bullet in air, this spin is insufficient to stabilize the bullet when it enters the denser medium of tissue. Thus, as soon s the bullet enters to body, it will begin to wobble. As the bullet begins to wobble, its cross-sectional area becomes larger, the drag force increases, and more kinetic energy is lost. If the path through the tissue is long enough, the wobbling will increase to such a degree that the bullet will be completely unstable and will tumble end-over-end through the tissue."