Going shooting

[error]

You may not know that the typical indoor public range runs at a loss.     

It's easy to see why:

[youtube=425,350]ynCsFZ3AS3E[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynCsFZ3AS3E

[KBCraig]

+1 to the "new error" for that one.  (Dunno what happened to the old "Guest" error.)

Colonel Sander's cackling evil twin needs to keep his booger hook off the bang switch.

[Bald Eagle]

It's crowded because all indoor ranges are necessarily crowded due to their small size.
It's loud because people blasting away with 0.223 pistols, shotguns, and 500 s&w magnums make a lot of noise in an enclosed space.
It _IS_ expensive, because their costs are so high.  I appreciate the overhead, maintenance, and insurance they have to carry.  That doesn't make it any cheaper.

The forms at Dominion Shooting Range (www.dominionshootingrange.com) were a simple liability waiver with signature and date, not all of the information on my guv't-issued "ID" plus half the questions on a typical 4473.

I've worked in the gun industry for 5 years, so I'm familiar with the business.

I'm also not going to start giving the poor owner crap the very first time I use his range.  I prefer to make a few visits, get to know the people, gather some specific information, and THEN open my big fat yap.

It's a nice range, they've got a lot of nice stuff there, and the owner seemed pretty nice.
I just vastly prefer outdoor ranges with some elbow room and a few side berms to segregate myself and new shooters from the indiscriminate lead-sprayers, the gangsters, and the rednecks.

It was relatively crowded and loud because you visited at a relatively busy time - busier than many days, not as busy as the day before.  Since I have an appreciation of what it costs to run a public indoor range, I know that MFL is really not expensive.  You may not know that the typical indoor public range runs at a loss.     

What did you find "onerous" about the form?  Did you raise this with the owner (he was there)?

[dalebert]

I was more than a bit bothered that they took my ID while we were shooting. I could perhaps understand that if I were renting a gun and my ID were kept until it was returned but we weren't renting any guns. Then, coincidentally, they nearly lost my ID.

[error]

Indeed. The ID requirement, whoever is requiring it, is the main reason I refuse to go there.

[Bald Eagle]

The questions about prior firearms experience helps us evaluate the customers concerning such things as where to place them on the range, what guns/calibers to rent to them, and even whether or not to let them shoot. 

The other 3 questions are designed to help weed out prohibited persons, which we are again required to try to do. 

I would rather see the staff ASK the customer what their experience is and then offer polite and knowledgeable help.  Having a bureaucrat-style form shoved at me and then ... nearly ... getting ordered to fill out all the little boxes didn't do anything to endear me to the 2 guys working the counter.  I appreciate the environment that they work in, so I'll cut them some slack, but I don't HAVE to shoot there, and the form doesn't help.  I like to support local firearms business, and I like to have a good relationship with the people who run them (unless they're shameless LEO suck-ups).  Sometimes we all have to deal with the FedGov's hoops, sometimes things can be streamlined, sometimes the manner in which the customer is served while complying with the minimum required of the FedGov can be improved. 

Are the Firing Line forms kept on record?  Why?  For how long?  How are they destroyed?

Simply having one question asking, "are you are prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm ought to cover it.  All the particulars are on the despicable "form 4473" if they need that clarified.

"Indiscriminate lead-sprayers" are just morons who discharge their firearms for no particular reason than for fun.  They are oftentimes the bread-and-butter business of an indoor range, and I accept them for what they are.  They're just usually distracting due to their behaviour and the large quantity of ammo that they send at the backstop.

I like to put my equipment down, not feel the need to watch everything and everyone out of the corner of my eye, and proceed to try and do something with the guns, ammunition, and time that I'm paying for.  It also helps new shooters, women on "ladies night" especially, feel far more comfortable if they don't have a bunch of yahoos running around with long arms, rifle caliber carbines, or hand cannons. 

This isn't intended as a formal complaint or a bitch-fest, just an honest subjective evaluation in response to a question that was asked.

I'd go back, and if I had more money coming in, I'd go back more often.
I'd go all the time if we could get out from under the FedGov's repressive stranglehold on the firearms industry.  Safety is a direct positive result from lots of practice.

[penguins4me]

I would rather see the staff ASK the customer what their experience is and then offer polite and knowledgeable help

This implies knowledgeable staff, which as in many other cases, are often hard to find and command a price premium, raising costs. Gun shop advice is along the lines of military intelligence in terms of in-joke humor. Having a form with the appropriate items already listed saves time, may inform the reader of things they may not have known otherwise, and is likely to be used as a legal CYA in the case that the customer does something stupid and the shop is sued.

'course, I plan to, one day soon, pick up a nice little piece of land and build my own berm and range...

[penguins4me]

I appreciate your knowledgable feedback, and though I don't work in the office side of the shop, I will try and give some answers.

[...]

For a business, that's all well and good... though it still doesn't justify to some the need, nay demand, some ranges have for gov't papers. A simple "name" field on the form could suffice, and those who feel they may be visiting a foreign country with empty shell casings can have the option to put their name down or not.

I'm lazy and use a credit card to run a short-term tab, but if someone wants to pay cash, well...

[Bald Eagle]

Fair enough, though let me repeat my suggestion that

Simply having one question asking, "are you are prohibited by state or federal law from possessing a firearm ought to cover it.  All the particulars are on the despicable "form 4473" if they need that clarified.

Also, though I know it would require setting up a different system, all of the "range ticket" benefits are adequately addressed by most businesses with a simple, separate receipt.  As the business owner C'ing your A, you can ask the customer for "identifying information" such as name, address, age, phone number, etc to be entered into a private database and which is printed on the receipt or simply electronically linked to the transaction.  Yes, I know how helpful all of that information can be when trying to clear things up or having a customer come back in to correct or complete a 4473 or resolve a serial number issue.  Really really helpful.

The concern is that "range tickets" may be easy for fedgoons to inspect, and some folks may desire the particulars of their range visit to remain in more private business records.

Maybe there are NH RSA's that require more data than in VA, but I'm just used to FAR less interrogation on all of the forms I'm used to seeing for ranges, rentals etc. 

Just trying to let you know that it strikes some people the wrong way, regardless of the reasons for doing it, and there are a lot of people with that mindset scheduled to move into the state and possibly the Manchester area. 

[Bald Eagle]

Are the requirements Federal or State?

It might help others less knowledgeable in the gun-law game to know exactly what is required and who requires it.

We gunnies understand the very tricky position most FFL's are in.
Doesn't make us like it any better.   

[penguins4me]

I'm not in a position to criticize, and so I didn't mean it that way when I'd flippantly suggested merely asking people to provide their name. (The whole "ID" thing is another matter, but also not relevant here.)

There are good people in the firearms business, and though I dislike some of the requirements these privately-owned businesses have for customers, I hate the way these same good people are abused by the BATFE and the rest of the goons.

Red's Trading Post in Idaho is fighting the BATFE's efforts to shut them down, with the goons using such things as a "Y" or "N" on their stupid forms (instead of "Yes" or "No") as 'willful violations of federal law'. Not freakin' joking. It's disgusting in the extreme.