Politics is an immoral dead-end

[jaqeboy]

My personal opinion is no (re zap/voting).  Somebody show me a causal link between voting for libertarians and the initiation of force.  Further, voting as a tactical matter makes some sense to me. Baby steps are precisely what can improve the real world, as well as being a great educational tool.

Ayn Rand's term was: "Sanction of the victim"

[dalebert]

You remind me so much of myself over the past 4 years or so.  But I realized that waking people up just isn't enough;

Wow, four years and we STILL don't have ancap. I give up.  Anarchy isn't a state of society. It's a philosophy of the individual. I'm already there in less than a year. I see violence for what it is. Anarchy isn't the end. It's the beginning.

If we have a Constitutional Republic in four years, I'll concede the efficacy of your actions but you still won't have changed the fact that I cannot personally justify the means, and the means is the reason I gave for my decision to withdraw from politics. We have a Constitutional Republic now (technically) but that hasn't prevented government abuse. You seem to be hoping that the people will finally start holding government accountable to the restrictions of a Constitutional Republic but how will you convince them? How about we convince them that aggression is wrong, even when the government does it? That's why anarchy is the beginning, even if the end is a truly Constitutional Republic.

[Russell Kanning]

...My present goal is to convince as many people as possible that politics does not hold the key to freedom.

So you basically came here with the explicit intention of causing a schism in our movement.

... actually some of us are on a collision course to break up "our" movement.
We are trying to strike at the root of this evil government .... sparks will fly ... and people will have to choose sides. Are you going to use social means or political ones?

I want to get along with everyone possible, but I have to not cooperate with wrong institutions, so that will put me at odds with some people every so often. I don't want to fight with people who are not really hurting anyone, but sometimes we will disagree.

I don't think Eric is doing anything wrong by wanting to change people's minds.

[Russell Kanning]

I was avoiding replying to this thread for almost an entire day. Let's see if I can do it again...

If we have actual conversations on interesting subjects it is not too bad. It is possible you will not be able to convince Eric, so it might seem like we are beating that poor horse.

[MaineShark]

Main Shark's post brings up, to me, a more interesting question, is voting against ZAP?

"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."
- L. Neil Smith

Does voting constitute the delegation of the initiation of force?

As I say, does paying taxes (at gunpoint) constitute the same?  Most taxes are on things you don't "need" to have/do, so you are certainly making a choice, and that choice is funding the government.

The fact of the matter is that voting is no different from any other of those choices.  The notion that voting is somehow "special" and "confers legitimacy on the government," thereby "condoning their actions" and "making the voter morally responsible for the government" is a claim made by the government, not something which stands on its own.  Accepting it is accepting the government.

Freely supporting the government would constitute the initiation of force.  Supporting the government at gunpoint, does not.

Joe

[Russell Kanning]

I don't think you have to sit on the sidelines, while staying out of politics. My example is Jesus Christ and he turned the world upside down by staying out of court (unless dragged in), making gadfly comments about the power elite in religion/government, encouraging individuals to change their minds and takes steps (such as leaving their government jobs), and clearing the temple. He did not support the system or chase after the powerful to get their ear. They came out to him since he was rousing the rabble and plotted his death. Others have followed in his steps and had similar results.

[anarchicluv]

I don't think you have to sit on the sidelines, while staying out of politics. My example is Jesus Christ and he turned the world upside down by staying out of court (unless dragged in), making gadfly comments about the power elite in religion/government, encouraging individuals to change their minds and takes steps (such as leaving their government jobs), and clearing the temple. He did not support the system or chase after the powerful to get their ear. They came out to him since he was rousing the rabble and plotted his death. Others have followed in his steps and had similar results.

Assuming Jesus actually did these things as reported, what did it accomplish?  Is the state smaller?  Are we living in an anarcho-capitalist world?  Some of Jesus's most ardent followers are also rabid warmongers.  I'm not sure what your point was here.

[Russell Kanning]

I came "here" with the explicit intention to dissuade others from using violent means to achieve their ends.  If this causes a schism, then so be it.

Sorry, folks, I couldn't help it. I have to touch my dick again, but only because you all make it look so pleasurable

If you cannot resist making snide and insulting comments like this, maybe you should stay away from this thread.

amen brother
Eric might be longwinded and willing to debate .... but you can avoid this topic with ease. As long as he is not causing too many problems, he will have room to voice his ideas on this forum.

I think I have been very patient with the endless political threads on this forum and have refrained from joining each discussion to display my displeasure. This thread will not ruin your life or cause you too much discomfort.

[Russell Kanning]

People say if you don't like the system, work through the process to change it, but what if you take issue with the process?

There is this machine that is politics and the Democratic process. The reason I'm an anarchist is not simply because I don't like the direction the machine is going. It's because I believe the machine itself is violent.

Thoreau commented that he didn't mind the machinery of government too much if it caused some friction in our society ... but when the whole machine is friction, then he had to throw a wrench into the gears.
The evil government that pervades our society is being fed much too much money and power ... and it causes massive amounts of damage both here and all over the world. It must be stopped. But even as we stop it, we should follow decent methods to not become like our enemy.

[Russell Kanning]

I am weary of the young preacher and his religion.

you can avoid him easily .... he is in one thread as far as I know.
preachers and their ideas are welcome to start threads on this forum .... you are also very welcome to avoid them. I don't think he has ruined anyone's life or taken over this forum.

[Russell Kanning]

Assuming Jesus actually did these things as reported, what did it accomplish?  Is the state smaller?  Are we living in an anarcho-capitalist world?  Some of Jesus's most ardent followers are also rabid warmongers.

It comes and goes. The immediate followers of Christ turned the Roman world upside down and were hunted down by the state. Powerful evidence of their effect on the status quo.
If you want to give up and play paddycake with the state because they seem powerful, go ahead. I just cannot join you.
Religions/States have twisted his words and used them as sanction (there is that idea again) for their actions. I have had to knock the american government crude off of Christianity to see more clearly myself.
Governments have to convince enough people that they are saving them from criminals or other evil countries to protect their way of life and the homeland. They have to have the consent of the governed.

[anarchicluv]

Assuming Jesus actually did these things as reported, what did it accomplish?  Is the state smaller?  Are we living in an anarcho-capitalist world?  Some of Jesus's most ardent followers are also rabid warmongers.

It comes and goes. The immediate followers of Christ turned the Roman world upside down and were hunted down by the state. Powerful evidence of their effect on the status quo.

Well, if your goal is to resist the state, get raided, arrested and hung then yeah, Jesus is your model to follow when it comes to political activism.  Just because he supposedly made a lot of noise doesn't mean he actually ACCOMPLISHED anything when it came to bringing down the Roman state.  The state only got bigger, not smaller, during the times of Jesus. 

[Russell Kanning]

I guess you are getting the picture now.

You sure are bitter. I stopped being so mad, when I started seeing a path to destroy the feds.

[Eli]

He did not support the system or chase after the powerful to get their ear.

In at least one case I think he gave them back their ear   Russell your faith based pacifism is admirable, but in the end it got your man hung on a tree and the long term result was a church abusing his teachings and states even uglier and more invasive than the one at the time.  Alright maybe not uglier, but more vast and just as scary.   What is pacifism to a state that doesn't mind killing dissenters?

[Eli]

I worry for you Russell.  You can't destroy the state if they feed you to the lions.  In the end it was the Rome that changed the church, after all the diehard faithful went for lionchow.  With the good folk gone you end up with a Holy Roman emperor.  You are great as the conscience of a movement, the young preacher has a long way to go before he is as convincing and eloquent as you are, and you have acts to back up deeds.  Eric just seems to be getting peoples hackles up because of his tone and highhandedness.  Something I'm a bit of an expert at.