Anti-politics

[dysurian]

There is still a difference between taxation and voting, even if they are both functions of government. One you get shot for, the other you don't. There's a lot more choice involved in voting, because you get to choose to not vote if you don't want to. I agree that how you choose to defend yourself is up to you. I'm not saying that voting is immoral anymore, because I'm not completely sure if it is (though I still think it's less effective to reach my goals than other methods).

You're free to choose not to pay taxes.  Just go live in the woods like a hermit.  No gun will be pointed at your head.  Simple.

Joe

But there's still a difference between taxation and voting. When you say I'm "free to choose," and then tell me that my options are limited (to moving to the woods, going to prison, living on the lam, etc.) there's a contradiction. Do you see the contradiction? I can do whatever I want when deciding where to shop (or if I want to shop in the first place) and no such options are forced on me. I'm completely free to choose about shopping, because it doesn't present me with a list of my limited options, which are limited at the point of a gun like they are with slavery...er...I mean taxation 

Paying for something you do not acknowledge is a bit backwards.  It is like having a sports competition and not showing up to the game because you don't acknowledge the other team.  Naturally you forfeit and the game and the trophy gets handed to the other team.

For some it is a matter of personally comfort and personal situations which I can understand hence the reason I work within the system. 

In the same token crucifying those individuals that would engage in the system to try to make it pro-liberty is foolish.  Would you exile the mail-room clerk at Enron because of the evils that Enron transgressed?  Or the doorman or the whistle blower that tried but failed to warn those that needed to know?  No, of course not.  The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of those few individuals who made those sinister decisions and robbed so many of so much.

The baseball analogy used prior asks if we should use the Chicago Cubs to weaken the Chicago Cubs.  This is easy enough, hire a manage who wants to fill the roster with non-athletes.  Done.  The lose nearly every game.  After four or eight years, what then?  Hire another manager of similar thinking, rinse, repeat.

Thanks for your input. I think your analogy of a sports competition I pay for but don't show up to isn't quite like paying taxes and not voting. I have initiated the sports competition in your example, but taxation is forced on me. If a thief takes my wallet, I don't find him and suggest ways he should spend my money. The problem isn't how he should spend my money, but that he shouldn't have stolen it in the first place. The money taken from me by the government is absolutely theft. It isn't anything like free choice on my part to say that I should vote to suggest how the government spend the money they steal from me any more than I should do the same thing with the thief. The problem I have with that method of thinking is that it validates the theft. It's basically saying, "OK, you've taken my money. Fine. Now at least let me have a say in how it's spent." If you're calling taxation anything but theft, I think you're giving it too much moral credit.

In the Chicago Cubs example: Just like the government has lots of fans, the Chicago Cubs do too. When you put in that first manager, the fans aren't going to like what's going on. The next time you try to put in a similar manager (or keep the same one) they're not going to stand for it. In this example, the "fans" of government have the power of voters, lobbyists, the mainstream media, a huge and diverse number of corporations, etc. interested in getting a "manager" in power who favors big government success.

I'm absolutely not interested in crucifying anybody here. I'm just explaining and defending my views to a receptive, intelligent audience. If I were crucifying people, I'd take the disagreements public and try to incite people against those who disagree with me. I don't ever intend to do that. It would really get in the way of my message and discredit me hugely. This conversation exists just on this board. If I ever take any crucifixions to the public, please let me know. I intend to be involved in liberty media in NH to a certain extent (I'm not in NH yet, but that hasn't stopped me from working on the beginnings of a podcast series I'd like to put together). I would hate to highlight the differences between members of the FSP (and liberty lovers in general) rather than highlight the important parts we pretty much all agree on, in addition to highlighting my personal views.

[Russell Kanning]

the feds came into the NH woods and dragged off Ed and Elaine ... the evil force is very real

the best thing to destroy government would be to convince the public to stop supporting it .... but not paying taxes and hiding in the woods is something you can actually do ... otherwise you spend time doing what is safe, but doesn't lead anyone on a different path.

[John Edward Mercier]

The system isn't some magical evil that one day appeared.
The sixteenth amendment was instituted because it was initially a tax on high incomes (for the most part still is). The less affluent wanted to 'harm' those they felt controlled them and voted it in. The fact that it now affects 60% of individual taxpayers is the outcome of that spite.

[MaineShark]

But there's still a difference between taxation and voting. When you say I'm "free to choose," and then tell me that my options are limited (to moving to the woods, going to prison, living on the lam, etc.) there's a contradiction. Do you see the contradiction? I can do whatever I want when deciding where to shop (or if I want to shop in the first place) and no such options are forced on me. I'm completely free to choose about shopping, because it doesn't present me with a list of my limited options, which are limited at the point of a gun like they are with slavery...er...I mean taxation 

I assure you, there are places you cannot shop without the government pulling a gun on you.  Try to go buy some Uranium.

You never have unlimited choices.

The problem I have with that method of thinking is that it validates the theft. It's basically saying, "OK, you've taken my money. Fine. Now at least let me have a say in how it's spent."

If someone is about to be raped, and pulls out a condom to avoid catching a STD, does that "validate the rape"?

Joe

[Tom Sawyer]

I never agreed to any terms established by some of those dead folks.

This system is built on a foundation of sand and the gooberment knows it. Politicians and lawyers can show the twisted path that claims legitimacy. You realize what a crock the whole thing is when you try to explain it to someone.

When you can go to prison for years for buying money orders with legally obtained money. When it is a crime to "hide" your money from big brother. When you can't leave the country without their permission... the list goes on and on. It is called a police state.

[John Edward Mercier]

The governance documents are a social contract that at any time can be changed.
The argument, 'I didn't sign the Constitution'... is largely used by people that will then aspouse their rights under it. It can't be both ways...

The problem we have is that a very small amount of the populous has been guiding the ship. Much of what we now have institutionalized is unnecessary and largely worthless... though costly.

I have a Social Security Insurance that is bankrupt, and worthless. I have an Army and Navy doing who knows what in my name. I have umpteen departments covering collective holdings that I don't want. I have a Department of Energy and a Department of Education, that I don't even know what they do. I have a Federal Highway Admin that takes gas taxes and builds railways and bike paths. Etc., Etc., Etc.

And all this before I get a redundancy on the State, and yes, even local level.

But because of the Congressional ability to borrow against the GDP... I can't see a way to stop them.

[Russell Kanning]

Yea ... Ed and Elaine .... and their friends rotting in jail reveals the police state.
They got their money from willing customers ... and the government wanted half of it.

[Tom Sawyer]

"social contract" now there is a load of BS.

Just cause somebody comes up with a term and defines it doesn't give it any authority.

History is full of failed systems that had to be thrown off.

The first american revolution was farewell to Kings... this one will be farewell to the State.

People have come to enjoy choices in everything they buy... government is the next obvious opportunity. In many ways we are more prepared to decentralize/privatize than any time in history.

A Farewell to Kings
Rush

When they turn the pages of history
When these days have passed long ago
Will they read of us with sadness
For the seeds that we let grow?
We turned our gaze
From the castles in the distance
Eyes cast down
On the path of least resistance

Cities full of hatred, fear and lies
Withered hearts and cruel, tormented eyes
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise
Beating down the multitude and
Scoffing at the wise

The hypocrites are slandering
The sacred halls of Truth
Ancient nobles showering
Their bitterness on youth
Can't we find the minds that made us strong?
Can't we learn to feel what's right
And what's wrong?
What's wrong?

Cities full of hatred, fear and lies
Withered hearts and cruel, tormented eyes
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise
Beating down the multitude and
Scoffing at the wise
Can't we raise our eyes and make a start?
Can't we find the minds to lead us
Closer to the Heart?

[John Edward Mercier]

"social contract" now there is a load of BS.

Just cause somebody comes up with a term and defines it doesn't give it any authority.

History is full of failed systems that had to be thrown off.

The first american revolution was farewell to Kings... this one will be farewell to the State.

People have come to enjoy choices in everything they buy... government is the next obvious opportunity. In many ways we are more prepared to decentralize/privatize than any time in history.

A Farewell to Kings
Rush

When they turn the pages of history
When these days have passed long ago
Will they read of us with sadness
For the seeds that we let grow?
We turned our gaze
From the castles in the distance
Eyes cast down
On the path of least resistance

Cities full of hatred, fear and lies
Withered hearts and cruel, tormented eyes
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise
Beating down the multitude and
Scoffing at the wise

The hypocrites are slandering
The sacred halls of Truth
Ancient nobles showering
Their bitterness on youth
Can't we find the minds that made us strong?
Can't we learn to feel what's right
And what's wrong?
What's wrong?

Cities full of hatred, fear and lies
Withered hearts and cruel, tormented eyes
Scheming demons dressed in kingly guise
Beating down the multitude and
Scoffing at the wise
Can't we raise our eyes and make a start?
Can't we find the minds to lead us
Closer to the Heart?

I was once told by a superior court judge that the authority of the Constitution becomes apparent right around the time I decide that permanent imprisonment without trial is wrong. The reason... the Constitution construes this right... without out it the right does not exist.

[Tom Sawyer]

Rights don't come from the Constitution...

[Eli]

Amen.  The Constitution merely recognizes a few of them and explicitly tells the fedgov not to violate them.

[Jacobus]

The argument, 'I didn't sign the Constitution'... is largely used by people that will then aspouse their rights under it. It can't be both ways...

Well, the government claims to act according to the Constitution, so if its threatening you I see nothing wrong with pointing out that it is violating its own alleged charter.  That doesn't mean you are a Constitutionalist; you're just pointing out the hypocrisy of the government.

[MaineShark]

"social contract" now there is a load of BS.

I'd probably add some other adjectives in there...

A contract exists when folks enter into to a particular agreement among themselves.  It requires a "meeting of the minds" - everyone must know what they are agreeing to (or, at least, have the opportunity - if you don't read the fine print, it's your own damn fault).  And it requires consent - no contract created under duress is valid.  Those are the two factors that define a contract.

I didn't agree to any "social contract" so I cannot possibly be bound by it.

Simply existing does not put me under someone's "jurisdiction."

Joe

[J’raxis 270145]

Use the government to tear down the government? But I think that's like saying we should use the Chicago Cubs power as a baseball team to make sure the Chicago Cubs are disempowered as a baseball team and lose their division this year (something I know Cubs fans can agree is actually happening )

That's a pretty good example of what we're trying to do, actually—ever heard of someone paying off athletes to throw a game?

[J’raxis 270145]

The argument, 'I didn't sign the Constitution'... is largely used by people that will then aspouse their rights under it. It can't be both ways...

Of course you can. The Constitution doesn't grant rights, it protects them. You have those rights, and can assert them, regardless of the fact that you didn't sign onto a document that purports to protect them.