Has Stefan Molyneux hooked you?

[MaineShark]

Do me the favor and post, so I can save my time and ammo for defending someone, who would appreciate the assistance, if such should threaten them or their loved ones.

Heh.  That's not a bad idea.  I think this came up before, when there was loose talk about breaking Russell out of prison (or, rather, there was loose talk among the Feds about others potentially trying that).  "Freeing" him in that way would not be according to his wishes, so why would we do it?

Some cases (eg, Russell) are obvious, but it might not be a bad idea for any pacifists to make sure it is known that they don't want help if it involves violence.

Joe

[Perilous]

Has he covered the subject of the Free State Project?  If so, I'd listen to that podcast next.

He has.  I don't recall which podcasts, but the topic has come up a number of times.  In general, he's against it for being pointless.

[TackleTheWorld]

Yeah, in this FTL interview he thought the Free State Project was a political movement.

[Lloyd Danforth]

The same mistake a lot of Porcs make, too

[Russell Kanning]

How many here, who claim to be pacifists, would idly allow some innocent to be raped, tortured, murdered, etc?

Do me the favor and post, so I can save my time and ammo for defending someone, who would appreciate the assistance, if such should threaten them or their loved ones.

I sure wouldn't want to infringe on their freedom to suffer.

IMHO, pacifists are extremely selfish people.

why are you so angry about "pacifists"?
I guess you should consider me one of those people you will not be defending. I hadn't known that you had previously promised to protect us.
When did any of us say that we wanted to suffer.
How are we selfish? Is that something bad for you?

[Perilous]

Yeah, in this FTL interview he thought the Free State Project was a political movement.

For his definitions, it is.  The goal of the FSP is to reduce the size of the NH government, though whatever means.  The goal of FDR is to encourage personal liberty because we have no control over political liberty, even at the state or city level.

[Jim Johnson]

How many here, who claim to be pacifists, would idly allow some innocent to be raped, tortured, murdered, etc?

Do me the favor and post, so I can save my time and ammo for defending someone, who would appreciate the assistance, if such should threaten them or their loved ones.

I sure wouldn't want to infringe on their freedom to suffer.


IMHO, pacifists are extremely selfish people.

Do you have a questionair for people to complete who might want to be protected by you?
Or maybe so you don't waist your time or ammo on someone you don't think is worthy?

When one acts in the defense of another, he does so for his own well being.

I don't see how someone who is saving you time and ammo can be considered selfish.

[Russell Kanning]

The goal of the FSP is to reduce the size of the NH government, though whatever means.  The goal of FDR is to encourage personal liberty because we have no control over political liberty, even at the state or city level.

I look at it a little differently. You might reduce the size of the rotten government by your personal liberty decisions. Your daily decisions might effecty the whole political structure indirectly.
I would tell anybody thinking like this Stefan guy ... that there is nothing inherently incompatible about his approach with the FSP.

[David]

Very good roundtable discussion at strike the root, with Wendy McElroy, Brad Sprangler, and Stefan Molyneux. 
http://www.strike-the-root.com/
Labeled 'Anarchist Round Table: 'The Ron Paul Revolution'
A little awkward at first, but gets good within a few minutes. 

[Eli]

Brad posted this on the LL2 yahoo list.   I can't say that there was anything new in it that we haven't been over here.  Though the economic argument, that the money would be better spent on agorist causes, is an interesting one.  More profit in it.  Although I'm not sure what brad menat by agorist, maybe agorist educational efforts (like his).  Counter economic efforts ought to support themselves. But I digress.  For me the RP thing crystilized this morning.  Education and other non political efforts (though I believe political efforts can have educational benefits) are like buying a product or investing.  Political efforts are like the lottery.  As a person who never throws money away on a lottery I should have known better than to get caught up in the RP maelstrom.  The true benefits to the RP campaign will all be in their educational value. 

After todays disappointment there are going to be a lot of disheartened, even angry RP supporters.  I hope you non political types take some time today to win as many of them over to your side as you can.  Sometimes someone wins the lottery, but statistically almost everyone loses.  Poor people, desperate people, buy tickets anyway.  We are poor in liberty, desperate for a chance to win it.  Magical thinking.  Today reminded me that those dollars would be better saved, spent, invested.  Burned.  Rather I gave them to the state.  The analogy holds there too.  Stupid.  I realize this today.

Some folks won't realize it.  Take a few minutes today to talk to a ticket buyer.  Talk about better ways to waste that dollar rather than on the political lottery.  Tell them about the Liberty Scholarship Fund, The Libertarian Enterprise, or whatever, a lot of liberty projects out there.  Talk them up.  Today.  Before people wast more money on tickets.

[David]

Very well stated.  I had not thought of the 'lottery ticket' angle. 

[Eli]

Mean either until I
1) heard Brad make the economic argument and
2) realized today just how slim the chances were the whole time.

[TackleTheWorld]

Brad posted this on the LL2 yahoo list. 

Where?

[Eli]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LeftLibertarian2/

[dalebert]

Brad posted this on the LL2 yahoo list.   I can't say that there was anything new in it that we haven't been over here.  Though the economic argument, that the money would be better spent on agorist causes, is an interesting one.  More profit in it.  Although I'm not sure what brad menat by agorist, maybe agorist educational efforts (like his).  Counter economic efforts ought to support themselves. But I digress.  For me the RP thing crystilized this morning.  Education and other non political efforts (though I believe political efforts can have educational benefits) are like buying a product or investing.  Political efforts are like the lottery.  As a person who never throws money away on a lottery I should have known better than to get caught up in the RP maelstrom.  The true benefits to the RP campaign will all be in their educational value. 

After todays disappointment there are going to be a lot of disheartened, even angry RP supporters.  I hope you non political types take some time today to win as many of them over to your side as you can.  Sometimes someone wins the lottery, but statistically almost everyone loses.  Poor people, desperate people, buy tickets anyway.  We are poor in liberty, desperate for a chance to win it.  Magical thinking.  Today reminded me that those dollars would be better saved, spent, invested.  Burned.  Rather I gave them to the state.  The analogy holds there too.  Stupid.  I realize this today.

Some folks won't realize it.  Take a few minutes today to talk to a ticket buyer.  Talk about better ways to waste that dollar rather than on the political lottery.  Tell them about the Liberty Scholarship Fund, The Libertarian Enterprise, or whatever, a lot of liberty projects out there.  Talk them up.  Today.  Before people wast more money on tickets.

I haven't talked about it that much except in passing- the notion that a lot of resources are being used on this that would be better used elsewhere, both time, effort, and money. On the other hand, some points I've made were made with the understanding that they would largely be rejected by my target audience, but that they may be reconsidered later with new information and new experience. That's why I said that people need to do this campaign, get it out of their systems so to speak, and then some of them will be more receptive to what I'm trying to say about political activism.

I think you're right about some good coming from the message. That was the most important thing from the start about the RP campaign. I do however, think it's important that we refine that message because it's still a message of statism. I think a lot of people were inspired about the idea of liberty, but now they need us to help them reach the realization of what it really means. The loss in NH can either be progress or a setback for liberty depending on how we handle it now. People need to understand that democracy is not freedom, that having a consensus does not make you right, and not having a consensus for Ron Paul did not mean he wasn't the best candidate. Someone other than Ron Paul is likely going to be our next president and perhaps many others that are nothing like Ron Paul are likely to follow. We need to get as many people as possible to understand that the basis for that authority is invalid. When Hillary, or Obama, or Rudy McRomney gets elected, we need to proclaim that (s)he is not my president no matter how many people supported him or her.