Should protesters respect private property?

[Lloyd Danforth]

Come and get me Punk!

[David]

At the risk of being put on ignore, and verbally beaten on by a friend, I have to ask you a question Caleb. 
What is the fundamental difference between a person choosing to commit suicide quickly by hanging or inhaling car fumes in a closed garage, and a person dying of cirrhosis of the liver slowly, or by a reckless lifestyle?
You want to use force to 'save' some people, but object to the use of force others use to 'save' other people.  You cannot have it both ways.  If force and encroachment is wrong some times, why not all times?  Why is Your pet issue more important than other well meaning pet issues that others have?
I don't mean to beat on you, but I see moral hypocracy.  Jesus spoke of hypocracy, and he never had anything good to say about it. 

[MaineShark]

No. You have humanity. It's these libertarian monsters who have no idea what it is to be a human that get on my bad side. He struck a nerve.

Yeah, we're monsters, while you go around proudly supporting the system that murdered a quarter of a billion people (at least) in the last century.  Yup, that makes sense.

And for him to compare someone who chooses medical euthanasia to deal with a terminal illness to someone who suffers from severe clinical depression only demonstrates his folly.

I did not say anything about a terminal illness, did I?  She would have lived a relatively-normal lifespan, and certainly had years left.

Then again, Joe lives in Debateland. Not earth. I have put him on ignore. I can't think of any reason for me to speak to him ever again.

There was no reason for you to speak to me, before.  You already had me on ignore, then.  But you just wanted to try and get the last word, eh?  Highly mature.

Joe

[MaineShark]

At the risk of being put on ignore, and verbally beaten on by a friend, I have to ask you a question Caleb. 
What is the fundamental difference between a person choosing to commit suicide quickly by hanging or inhaling car fumes in a closed garage, and a person dying of cirrhosis of the liver slowly, or by a reckless lifestyle?
You want to use force to 'save' some people, but object to the use of force others use to 'save' other people.  You cannot have it both ways.  If force and encroachment is wrong some times, why not all times?  Why is Your pet issue more important than other well meaning pet issues that others have?
I don't mean to beat on you, but I see moral hypocracy.  Jesus spoke of hypocracy, and he never had anything good to say about it.

Indeed.  Refraining from doing evil isn't only an obligation when it is easy to do so.  It's also (especially) an obligation when it is difficult to do so.

Once you add an "except," then the whole thing comes tumbling down.

Joe

[Russell Kanning]

Come and get me Punk!

and like Sandman .... I will not be stopping the action

[Russell Kanning]

Was it my place to stop them? Only if I could have used superior logic to convince them to go on living.

I agree my friend.

[sandm000]

Caleb, does my belief in god determine any part of your obligation to help me? If so don't help me.

If God is benevolent,
then why does he allow evil to exist?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is God able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is God neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

If you call him a kind and loving god, you diminish his omnipotence and omniscience.  Because by your definition you deny him knowledge and action on the other side of human emotion. 

[Caleb]

At the risk of being put on ignore, and verbally beaten on by a friend, I have to ask you a question Caleb. 
What is the fundamental difference between a person choosing to commit suicide quickly by hanging or inhaling car fumes in a closed garage, and a person dying of cirrhosis of the liver slowly, or by a reckless lifestyle?
You want to use force to 'save' some people, but object to the use of force others use to 'save' other people.  You cannot have it both ways.  If force and encroachment is wrong some times, why not all times?  Why is Your pet issue more important than other well meaning pet issues that others have?
I don't mean to beat on you, but I see moral hypocracy.  Jesus spoke of hypocracy, and he never had anything good to say about it. 

No, no moral hypocrisy at all. You have to go back to a previous discussion with Maineshark to understand the context. He and I have a different definition of "violence" and by his piss-poor definition of violence, it would be impossible for anyone to be a pacifist because it would pretty much mean the relinquishment of any ability to act at all. I am a pacifist in the sense that I will not *harm* another person. I have already stated that I don't view that as a *no-contact* philosophy, so I use "violence" to protect a suicidal person in the exact same way that I would use "violence" to protect someone from a rapist. It's just that it's not my definition of violence, because no one gets hurt. I would hide my wife's car keys to keep her from running the engine in the garage. Sure. I would also take a rapist's car keys to prevent him from following his victim as she makes her getaway. Same basic stuff.

Isn't it you who have the moral hypocrisy? You would defend someone from a monster, but not if that monster is a delusional version of herself?

[MaineShark]

No, no moral hypocrisy at all. You have to go back to a previous discussion with Maineshark to understand the context. He and I have a different definition of "violence" and by his piss-poor definition of violence, it would be impossible for anyone to be a pacifist because it would pretty much mean the relinquishment of any ability to act at all.

Really?  How so?  I don't recall defining violence here.  Could you quote me doing so?

I am a pacifist in the sense that I will not *harm* another person. I have already stated that I don't view that as a *no-contact* philosophy, so I use "violence" to protect a suicidal person in the exact same way that I would use "violence" to protect someone from a rapist. It's just that it's not my definition of violence, because no one gets hurt. I would hide my wife's car keys to keep her from running the engine in the garage. Sure. I would also take a rapist's car keys to prevent him from following his victim as she makes her getaway. Same basic stuff.

So you get to be the arbiter of what is "harm" and what is not?

Isn't it you who have the moral hypocrisy? You would defend someone from a monster, but not if that monster is a delusional version of herself?

Yeah, that's sensible.  Caleb is the arbiter of mental states.  They used to burn people because they had this "delusion" that the planet was round, not flat.

Once you open that door, you cannot close it.  Who gets to decide what "sane" is?

Joe

[Caleb]

Caleb, does my belief in god determine any part of your obligation to help me? If so don't help me.

No, your belief in God, or lack thereof, is irrelevant to whether I would help you in any given situation. But it is relevant to this discussion, since you asked me whether I believed in God, and then based an argument on it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you can ask me a question, I can ask you, especially if you are basing statements which seem to assume a belief in God. For instance:

Have you heard the expression "God doesn't give you more than he can handle?"  If suicide is Him calling someone back to heaven, why would you fight it?

Is this your belief? If so, then I can proceed to discuss it with you. But I must be honest with you and tell you that it is *not* my belief. So if it's also not your belief, why would you present it as a topic for discussion? And if it's neither your belief nor my belief, why should we entertain it?

If God is benevolent,
then why does he allow evil to exist?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is God able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is God both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is God neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

These questions are all very good questions, but are off topic. There is a whole realm of theology called "theodicy" which deals with the very question "whence is evil." If you are truly interested in discussing it (not debating it) then we should start a new thread. 

[MaineShark]

So if it's also not your belief, why would you present it as a topic for discussion? And if it's neither your belief nor my belief, why should we entertain it?

Sometimes, just occasionally, people enjoy discussing things for the sake of learning, not self-aggrandizement.

Joe

[Russell Kanning]

I agree with Caleb in the last couple of posts ... and not just so he won't hide my car keys.

[Caleb]

I changed my icon, m'kay?  So no more harassing me about it, m'kay?

[Russell Kanning]

much better ... that limp-wristed guy gives us pacifists a bad name

[David]

much better ... that limp-wristed guy gives us pacifists a bad name

And the baby with the ray gun is better?