Secede

[Luke S]

I want USA to fall apart

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buppert/buppert11.html

What a terrible, terrible statement, and what a terrible, terrible story. That Lew Rockwell, who is supposed to be a respectable man, would have such a horrible, subversive "story" on his website is just terrible, especially in this time when all US states must come together to face the challenges ahead.

Jesus Christ, what is this world coming to? Secession is not constitutional. Secession is treason, and that's all that it is.

Honestly, I don't even have the words for how disgusted I am. If you don't like this country, then move to a different country. It's that simple.

And if you live in Croatia, and you don't like the USA, then just stay in Croatia and forget about the USA. Don't say that you wish the USA to fall apart in front of Americans. Just forget that the USA ever existed, and go back to your business on your side of the Atlantic in Croatia. Again, it's that simple.

Actually, if you read the Anti-Federalist and the Federalist papers, you'll see that many of the States signed into the Constitution with the express promise that secession would be an option if they so choose. Moreover, it'd be absolutely hypocritical of a nation founded on the premise of secession and rebellion forbade the same exact concept.

States writing onto their ratification documents things like "We can secede if we want to" is like George W. Bush writing onto the bills he signs "The President can violate this if the country is being threatened by terrorism".* Neither statement holds any validity, no matter how much their writers want them to hold any validity. The fact is that once you sign up to be a US territory or a US state, you are part of the USA for good, and there is no way of ever leaving. If that doesn't sound good to you, then don't sign up to be a territory or state. Again, it's that simple, folks.

As for individual citizens, there is actually a way in which an individual citizen can secede from the USA. He/she can renounce his/her citizenship. Somehow I doubt that Ian did that when he "seceded" from the USA. Because if you do that, it will pretty much be guaranteed that you will be deported. You will be then given a choice of what new country you want to live in, and if you give the standard anarchist response of "I don't want to live in a country", then you will either be deported to Somalia, or you will be given a ship and you will live on the high seas for the rest of your life, living off of whatever fish you catch out on the high seas, and getting wood from various islands to cook that fish with. I guess living in Antarctica could be an option, too, if that's what you want. I've heard it's blindingly beautiful and pristine.

*There was a rumor going around that Bush was writing things like this on some of the bills that he signs. I don't know whether it's true or not, and I'm not making a judgment on whether it's true or not. The only reason why I brought it up is because it made for a good analogy.

**I just also want to clarify that I'm not saying any of this to be mean to anybody. I'm saying this because it's the truth, and I want you all to know the truth of this matter. Not the Lew Rockwell fantasyland fairy tale. The truth. And yeah, I know the truth hurts, but it is the truth, so it's better for you to hear it and be upset about it now than for you to believe the fairy tale and be happy until the reality hits you and then you will be really upset.

[Mike Barskey]

The fact is that once you sign up to be a US territory or a US state, you are part of the USA for good, and there is no way of ever leaving. If that doesn't sound good to you, then don't sign up to be a territory or state.

(my emphasis)

Does this sound like the free country that the US theoretically was created to be? "If you don't like it, tough! We are going to force you to follow our rules or deport you to live on the ocean or Antarctica!" You're saying "my way or the highway" and that is not even close to pretending to be freedom.

This doesn't sound good to me, but it doesn't matter because I didn't sign up to be a US territory or a US state, and neither did you, nor did anybody you know. You barely address this below, so I'll continue my comment after another quote.

As for individual citizens, there is actually a way in which an individual citizen can secede from the USA. He/she can renounce his/her citizenship. Somehow I doubt that Ian did that when he "seceded" from the USA. Because if you do that, it will pretty much be guaranteed that you will be deported. You will be then given a choice of what new country you want to live in, and if you give the standard anarchist response of "I don't want to live in a country", then you will either be deported to Somalia, or you will be given a ship and you will live on the high seas for the rest of your life, living off of whatever fish you catch out on the high seas, and getting wood from various islands to cook that fish with. I guess living in Antarctica could be an option, too, if that's what you want.

(my emphasis)

You, Luke, are my ex-husband, and I am going to sue you because you have not paid me one cent of alimony since our divorce. That is my claim, I'll even put it in writing. Will it matter if you renounce our "marriage?" Does that even make sense? If I claim control over you without your knowledge or consent, it
doesn't become true simply because of my claim; and if it's not true, then there is nothing to renounce.

But what if I do renounce my citizenship? You will deport me me? If I don't want to leave the property I own, I presume you will use aggression to force me to leave (or kill me in the process), but correct me if I'm wrong. This doesn't make any sense, either. You're saying that a person can be free from government by renouncing their citizenship, but once they do then the government will have the power to use force to control how and where that person lives (and what they own, and how they travel, etc.). That's freedom, to you?

[error]

This has devolved to trolling and I am done with it.

[John Edward Mercier]

The debate between whether a State could secede or not is largely based around the two founding treaties (Articles of Confederation and US Constitution). The A of C was perpetual without an option for secession, but required 100% consent of the member States. The US Constitution had no language suggesting perpetuity, but requiring only a super majority of its member States.
Some have suggested the A of C was never revoked, so the union is perpetual. Others have suggested that the US Constitution replaced the original A of C, thus revoking it.

For those of us that never leave NH, we might notice a few changes after secession. While those travelling outside would be entering a foreign country, and feel much the way foreign nationals trying to come to NH would.

[Luke S]

This has devolved to trolling and I am done with it.

Nope, no trolling. Just truth.

In fact, I'm changing my name to "Luke the Truthteller" because all I've done since I first signed on to NHfree is told the truth. I've never lied, nor presented a fantasyland version of events. All I've done is told the truth, even though sometimes the truth hurts so some may not like hearing the truth sometimes.

[ByronB]

This has devolved to trolling and I am done with it.

Nope, no trolling. Just truth.

In fact, I'm changing my name to "Luke the Truthteller" because all I've done since I first signed on to NHfree is told the truth. I've never lied, nor presented a fantasyland version of events. All I've done is told the truth, even though sometimes the truth hurts so some may not like hearing the truth sometimes.

First of what you said is not "truth" it may be your opinion (although I think that may be stretching it) but my opinion (and I'm sure many here share close to the same) is that the Feds have way too much power, have been overstepping their boundaries, and that it is time that everybody get together and stand up to them.

[Mike Barskey]

Nope, no trolling. Just truth.

I've pointed out that your "truth" seems self-contradictory, and you have not responded. Do you have a logical foundation for your truth, or is it just a claim?

[Friday]

Secession is not constitutional. Secession is treason, and that's all that it is.

Secession is spelled out as a legal right in the New Hampshire state constitution... which is older than the U.S. Constitution.  The U.S. Constitution does NOT state that secession is either illegal or considered to be treason.  Looks to me like secession is both legal and constitutional for New Hampshire citizens. 

[memenode]

Truth.. there's a subject I've been giving considerable amount of thought lately and all I concluded is that nobody actually has the absolute truth. If we can learn anything from history it is that it is extremely unlikely to nearly impossible for anyone to claim the knowledge of absolute truth and actually be right about that. So I'm quite weary of people who throw the "truth" claims around so liberally..

In fact, this very point, that anyone can be wrong about their beliefs, is one of the most powerful reasons to be a voluntaryist and therefore reject all coercive authority. Because how can you at the same time believe you could be wrong and support coercive government? It's a contradiction (because it supports forcing of ones "truth" on to others).

I don't know much of you, Luke, but judging from this thread you seem to still be well embedded in the statist mentality if you think of the idea of secession as treason and call for coming together of all US states as a way of solving the problem of personal liberty. So it's not actually a big surprise that you so easily throw the "truthteller" title on yourself. Next thing you know, you'll be running for the title of "President of USA" or the "High Chancellor of England". You know.. "strength through unity...".

Cheers

[Free libertarian]

 Luke,
Secession is Treason?  I don't think so.  If a state isn't free to secede how is that freedom? Sounds like slavery to me. 

How would that relate to a personal relationship? Gee your girfriend says it's time to end the relationship..your version of good behavior is to kick her in the ass and say not so fast treasonous bitch, you ain't leaving!  What's the difference between one girlfriend or 1.3 million people in say the state of New Hampshire that want to do something different? Does the nature of oppression change because the number of people affected changes? In your world, there are overlords and those who obey. In A FREE WORLD people who harm nobody can come and go as they please...if that is treason, freedom is treason.  Truth is a lie.  Truth Teller is a liar. Liar, liar pants on fire!     

[memenode]

Yeah, I'm reminded of the Ron Paul's saying:

"Truth is treason in the empire of lies".

So let it secede from that empire. 

[Luke S]

Ok Free Libertarian, gu3st, et. al.,

When I was a little kid, we were always taught in school that secession was treason. Especially when it was time to be taught about the Civil War.

But now that I think about it, when I was a little kid, I was also taught that microchips ought never to be placed into human beings. And I always thought that putting microchips in people was worse than murdering them. Maybe even worse than treason against them. And now that's what these governments are getting ready to do to people. I wish I had remembered about that when I was typing my last post, but I didn't. I only remembered the 'succession is treason' part. I guess I just sorta have this knee-jerk reaction that kicks in whenever people insult the USA, or say that they want to secede from us, or anything like that. I feel like there's so much anti-Americanism and so many enemies out to kill us that I have to have it. Maybe I'm one of those reactionary conservatives, I don't know.

Listen, I'm only one person, living one life. Freedom or slavery for great big swaths of people are things which are much bigger than me. And maybe you're right, maybe I'm not the best person to figure out how to have freedom for all those people. I always thought that the USA's goal was freedom for all, but from what I've seen, it looks like that's all changed since I was little.

Anyway I just know Ian is probably going to come along and call me a troll again, and say I'm trolling, so I'll go away now (for now at least).

[Mike Barskey]

Luke, if your last post was honest (and it sounds like it was), then that's a huge step! Admitting you were wrong is very hard to do, especially in public. Changing your mind about something is possibly harder, especially on something you believe in passionately. Congratulations on letting reason control your ideas instead of the other way around.

I'll make one minor correction: you said "I always thought that the USA's goal was freedom for all, but from what I've seen, it looks like that's all changed since I was little." While things have definitely changed since we were kids, I suggest that the goal of the government of the US has not been freedom for well over 200 years (which is different that what were taught by government schools).

Anyway, I hope you continue to let reason and logic guide your ideas.

[John Edward Mercier]

You have to remember the Lincoln's position for secession being treason during the Civil War is the validity of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. It should have been discussed heavily during your high school American History class (and yes that is government schools).

[memenode]

* gu3st applauds Luke

I bet a lot of us once thought it was treason to disobey and live free even when it is against the rules and prevalent mentality, including me...

But I think the truth is that you can only commit treason against yourself and those who yourself voluntarily contracted with, not against someone who merely claims to have a contract with you even though they never saw or asked you anything..